COVID catastrophe

Discussion in 'Politics and Society' started by Thomas, Aug 17, 2020.

  1. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    I'm not surprised.
    Talks with EU are ongoing atm.
    It would be foolish to engage in tittle-tattle.
    Let's wait and see what the results of the talks will be .. what outcome do YOU expect?
    Will it be favourable for the UK?
    Do you agree with this "insistence on free movement of people" when it comes to discussing trade of goods?
    The goal of the EU is clearly more than economic, which is what we originally joined up to.
    Don't get me wrong, I wasn't in favour of leaving, but now we have..
     
  2. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    And yet more ...

    In a clever sleight of hand, the Govt is dismantling the body that fronts for its abysmal failure in managing Track & Trace, and announced another body to replace it, with an expanded budget, and before the ink has dried on the contract it turns out this new system will run the same way as the old, with its budget going to the same private companies that have monumentally mismanaged the prior structure.

    You couldn't make this stuff up.
     
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  3. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    No, but the govt does rely on our complacency and desire 'not to make a fuss' in matters such as this. The assumption that 'they know what they're doing' and the assumption that 'they're acting in our best interest'.

    No. Why should it be? We're in the weaker position. Why should anyone — EU, US — offer us favourable terms, that's bad business.

    Well I never bought into that essentially racist 'fear-of-Johhny-foreigner' bull**** anyway.

    Well, not 'clearly', that's all part of the anti-EU rhetoric. There is a lot that needs putting right. Inside, we had a chance to effect change and argue in our interest. Outside, we have none. We will be subject to a major economic power.

    Brexit was sold on illusory promises and populist jingoism and racism, as is now clear.
     
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  4. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    It's not racist. You are making the same mistake as Gordon Brown. I suppose it depends
    where you live how you perceive things. If you live in some of the towns in the north of England, for example, you would know that the combination of finite public services, jobs, housing and so on, further sqeezes the poor considerably when the rate of immigration is unsustainably high .. and this happened in the Labour years.
    You might not notice it in say, London, where unemployment is low, and the majority of people
    were not even born in the UK.

    Living in the past does not change the reality of brexit. We have to go forward.
    We are not "subject to a major economic power" any more than Norway or Switzerland.
    Furthermore, Europe is not as strong as it was, for many reasons. It was already strained BEFORE
    we left [ continual monetary bailing out of mediteranean nations ], which if anything, is getting worse.

    It wasn't sold. It was a miscalculation by David Cameron .. he wasn't in touch with the north of England.
    ..much like you, it seems.
     
  5. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    And let me add —

    My dislike of the current Tory administration is evident. As for Labour, they should have the govt on the ropes, but they don't, and they're in the process of wrecking themselves as a credible party. The only light at the end of that particular tunnel, I think, is when David Miliband returns to the UK and re-enters politics. Until then, I just see for every step forward, internal spats dragging them two steps back.

    The Liberal Democrats? Jo Swinson — who voted with the Tory hard right on every vote in the house — has done for them. They're just an empty space now, aren't they?

    The Tories I admire for one reason only: The classic Tory assumption that power is theirs by right. That in the natural order of things, power belongs to them, because they are our betters — better bred, better educated, etc. It's almost like 'the divine right of kings'. It's this air of authority and superiority that triggers an almost genetic 'deference reflex' in the average Brit. And within Tory ranks, the rule is, as the rule always is with power, anything goes, if you deliver.

    You'll never see the Tories rending their clothes in a public display of guilt and shame the way the Labour Party is currently. Everything goes on behind closed doors. It's a lesson labour needs to learn, but won't, which is why they're never really suited to power. Blair had it, that conviction that what he thought was right was right for everyone. Remember the Weapons of Mass Destruction debacle? It did not matter that they did not exist, what mattered only was that Blair thought they did, and was justified therefore in doing what he did. And when the evidence stood against him? Bury it.

    He learnt the Tory lesson. When he lost the election, he couldn't get out of the Commons quick enough. It was a record. He was in the US, making millions as a speaker, peddling himself as the only man who could broker peace in the Middle East, FFS! :rolleyes:

    +++

    Boris, by any measure of previous employment record, is nowhere near up to the task: It's a matter of record that he does not pay attention to detail, he scives out of doing his job, he deceives, he lived for the photo-op ... but all that is acceptable because he got Brexit done.

    Take all the racist and other Little England nonsense out of the Brexit debate. Who actually benefits from us being outside a trading community, and how?
     
  6. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    They both pay heavily into the EU, I believe?

    Imo no-one feels threatened by Polish people, though there are a few xenophobe bigots (not you muhammad-isa) who might like to rant about them. People being what they are the whole issue has been twisted out of view, and with the assistance of the Brexit thought machine.

    In fact Brexit was really sold, quite irrationally, on the fear of the UK being 'invaded by swarms' of middle eastern and north African migrants -- even though they are not EU citizens and Brexit isn't going to have any effect upon illegal boat and lorry migrant entry?
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2020
  7. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Actually, it is. replace 'Polish' with 'Muslim' ...

    Most of those public services rely on immigrant staff.

    Well over 70% of immigrants have job offers when they come here.

    And jobs? Up until March, employment was at a record high ...

    Housing issues result from A) selling off the stock in the 80s, and the lack of investment subsequently, and now the relaxation of requirements for house builders to put up socially affordable housing. So the shortage is greatest at the lower end of the scale, while luxury developments go ahead, for sale to foreign investment.

    You have to look at what causes what. At causes, not symptoms.

    LOL. Certainly Cameron miscalculated. Certainly a London-centric media didn't get what was happening in the North, but the vote for 'stop all this immigration, make our low laws, etc... populist tosh.

    Laughable when our Brexit leader, Boris, won us the right to make our own laws, then attacked the judiciary when the laws they invoked displeased him! :D
     
  8. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    Don't be silly! If you lived in a town of 100,000 and it became 150,000 within a couple of years due to the changes in EU membership, that has NOTHING to do with racism if the inhabitants complain about it.
    It simply means that the rate of immigration is unsustainable .. whoever the immigrants may be.
     
  9. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    ..not you as well?
    Do you think that another vote would reverse the decision?
    If not, I assume the majority don't want to go through all that again.
    Let's move forward, shall we? I don't know how long Boris will be there,
    but the world has greater problems than brexit, I would have thought.

    It's not just about the UK.
     
  10. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Brexit was a scam but we're stuck with it. And will regret it, imo.

    I know a sweet family with two young children, she Polish and he English, married, who could not go out into their garden without being abused by one of their neighbours, since the brexit vote. And this in a small English town which definitely has not been overrun by immigrants. They chose to move house, to another village close by.

    It's evil.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2020
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  11. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    They're divorcing, but my (British) brother's wife in London is Polish and their daughter's been brought up bilingual and bicultural. Around Brexit there were 'Poles Go Home' messages painted on the Polish school in London where Janina attended special Polish classes, on weekends and so on.

    She (his wife) is been laid off from British Airways after nearly 30 years due to the Corona idiocy, and he has lost the bulk of his writing work by the same cause. He's four months in rent arrears. We're not playing games here. There are real people involved.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2020
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  12. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Personally, I was surprised. The hate crime against Jews, Muslims, foreigners, the non-binary-gendered, basically anyone who doesn't tick the 'Little Englander' box has risen significantly since Brexit was read to validate the mentality ... but hey, we're supposed to stop speaking about it, and just put up with it.
     
  13. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Hey-ho ... it unravels faster that one can keep up with! :D

    Steve Bannon's been indicted for fraud in the US.

    I won't bother going into Bannon's murky presence behind and discreet funding of the likes of Nigel Farage.

    Nor the very mucky world of Right-Wing US groups and Russia, funding anti-EU populism in the West.
     
  14. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    The countries that stopped it had extreme measures of quarentine, testing and contact tracing...once that two weeks is over folks can start moving who haven't been in contact with any.

    I have dozens of folks who I know that have tested postive and a few that died. Plenty who said it was the worst bug they ever had...

    30 year old niece just had a non hospitalization bout with the bug and is now being informed of the litany of things whe has to watch out for the rest of her life.

    Docs basically saying that if it doesnt kill you the first time, it places in you in the higher risk group and concern it may get you the second or third time around....unless they find treatment, cure or probably annual vaccine....and we know how good that will work in a post science america.
     
  15. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    did that happen?

    that kind of MIGRATION is unsustainable. no way supply chain for food and goods and construction can keep up with 20% growth...
     
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  16. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    But the hospitals are empty and the doctors are sitting around doing nothing, waiting for some covid catastrophe which is not happening, turning away serious cases in order to keep hospital beds open for covid victims who are not arriving. and hundreds of thousands of people all over the world are losing their jobs.

    Health workers have never had it so easy as far as work goes at the moment.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2020
  17. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Oh ... just found out the collapse of the Labour vote in the North of England was no collapse at all.

    OpenDemocracy

    Analysis of the 2019 election result: while Labour’s national vote share fell in each of the general elections between 1997 and 2010, it is not the case that support for Labour fell between 2010 and 2019.

    Across the 50 seats labour lost in the North, Midlands and Wales in 2019, total votes cast for Labour increased by nearly 30,000, Labour’s vote share was 39% in 2019 – unchanged from 2010.

    Labour did not suffer a collapse in its vote over the last decade. Instead, the Conservatives made large gains at the expense of UKIP and the Liberal Democrats.

    Labour gained over two million votes between 2010 and 2019, the Conservatives added three million. Labour ended the decade with a vote share in England and Wales that had increased from a low of 28.5% in 2010 to 34.3% in 2019. In 2017, Labour’s vote share of 42.4% in England and Wales approached the record of 44% set under Tony Blair in 1997.

    But First-past-the-post elections produce apparently paradoxical outcomes because of the way votes are distributed among parliamentary constituencies. Many of Labour’s success stories occurred in safe seats so that Labour’s vote is becoming more concentrated in fewer seats. In contrast, the Conservatives have added votes more uniformly, allowing them to increase their seats in England and Wales by 54.
     
  18. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    Obviously, I don't agree with the far-right.
    I don't agree with the far-left, for that matter.

    Nationalism is ignorant and evil.
    You can't claim that 50% of people belong to the far-right, because they don't.

    The situation of expanding EU and migration within became a source of tension.
    Clearly, we all are in different circumstances. That is one important reason
    why people vote for different parties.

    If brexit hadn't happened, the far-right would have caused more trouble.
    They weren't going away.
    I am well aware of what it's like to be unemployed .. I was one of Thatcher's 3 million.
    She even "rubbed it in", by saying "unemployment was a price worth paying".

    There is a consolation prize though. It's much easier to get to heaven if you're not wealthy.
    There has to be somebody at the bottom of the ladder .. western economic system depends on it!
     
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  19. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    That is a rather far-fetched claim.
    A few weeks ago we were all clapping for health workers, and now they are negligent?
    No .. you're losing the plot, my friend ;)
     
  20. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    I dsidn't think that they had. As I say, the pendulum swings to and fro.
    Never fear, Smith is here ;)
     

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