A refutation of the refutation of 'an affair on Golgatha'

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by muhammad_isa, Feb 3, 2021.

  1. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    @Thomas

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham_Quran_manuscript

    ..just down the road from me in B'ham UK. It was originally held by Quakers in the Cadbury library.

    However, I don't think either of us are trying to extinguish anybody's faith in God.
    That being said, I do appreciate that it is not easy to change one's perspective or feel
    socially excluded from a congregation due to creed.
    After all, Jesus himself had that problem, did he not?
     
  2. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    <script type='false'> I believe it is plagiarised.</script> ;)
     
  3. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    No, because the doctrine had yet to be vocalised in such detail. Once it was, no doubt they would have agreed to it! :D
     
  4. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    And anyone lucky to 'flee to the hills' with their life glad to get away: it was a terrible time.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2021
  5. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    Well, please enlighten me .. why would the "Jewish Christians" have believed in the orthodox trinity if they knew what you know?
     
  6. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    That doesn't look like the writings of a saint to me..
    It is highly sectarian, criticising his "fellow believers" in Jesus.

    Why do we have to be so venomous? o_O

    This is the thing with trinitarians .. they insist that Jesus is God, and then condemn everybody else who think otherwise..
    For trintarians, it is not good enough to believe any other way than the orthodox creed.

    That's what happens when we make arrogant claims about God, without divine authority.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2021
  7. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    Being a convert to Islam, it doesn't feel like "my" history. I wasn't born into any particular sect,
    and had no worldly connection with any family etc.

    I'm aware of the multidude of sects as I live near the second city of Birmingham UK. I try not to
    involve myself in outright condemnation of those that believe differently to myself.
    The main problem arises in war-torn situations. People start to hate others.
    It is politics, and not religion that is to blame, imo. When nations / govts. become highly sectarian, we have trouble.
     
  8. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    No-one is condemning your belief. You are condemning their belief.
    Think about it for a moment ...
    You're doing it every day, in fact. These are Interfaith Forums
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2021
  9. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    That isn't true. Believing in a saint that uses such venomous language towards those that don't believe in
    THEIR sect/creed implicitly condemns others. I am condemning the concept of the orthodox triinity being necessary as part of faith in God.
    I am not condemning all of the Abrahamic sects other than my own.

    Who is actually causing division? Am I suggesting that people aren't entitled to their own sectarian beliefs? No.
    Am I suggesting that atheists, for example, shouldn't be able to discuss the subject of God? No.
    Am I suggesting that other people, regardless of their faith, are not sincere? No.

    I cannot see how there can be peace in the world without discussing what we all believe and why.
    Brokering peace with "the tongue", ignoring what our church actually preaches achieves .. what exactly?

    Muslims who believe their warriors are saints .. Christians who believe their warriors are saints.
    What would Jesus make of all that?
    ..I can understand the Quakers wanting to disown conflict and violence. Not that simple though, is it?
     
  10. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    You are condemning what people believe, based on selectively chosen wiki snippets from ancient writings, ignoring those which do not support your own narrative, and ignoring that the world is not as it was in 1600 years ago. It is tiresome, and verges on trolling. IMO
    Those who say "Jesus is God" are disbelievers; they will not enter paradise, but hell. These evil people will have no helper!

    And surely they disbelieved when they said: 'Christ, the son of Mary, is indeed God'; whereas Christ had said: 'Children of Israel! Serve Allah, Who is your Lord and my Lord.' Allah has forbidden Paradise to those who associate anything with Him in His divinity and their refuge shall be the Fire. No one will be able to help such wrong-doers.

    Quran 5:72 Other Interpretations

    (edited ...)
     
  11. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    That is not entirely true. Naturally, I will tend to quote from wiki what seems relevant to me. I'm not however, ignoring everything else.
    If anybody thinks I quote something that is "pure hearsay", I'm quite prepared to look into it.
    You are right that the world isn't as it was 1600 years ago .. what particular aspect of that am I ignoring?

    Your paperback version of Qura'n by M. Pickthall does not say that..

    72. They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! God is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship God, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto God, for him God hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.
    73. They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! God is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.
    74. Will they not rather turn unto God and seek forgiveness of Him? For God is Forgiving, Merciful.

    - Qur'an - Surah Maida -

    ..so verse #72 is saying that Jesus taught that those who worship other than God will not enter heaven.
    #73 is saying that God is not the third of three, God is One
    #74 is saying that God accepts our repentance

    Furthermore, God is not a person in the "sky" with or without a beard, making threats.
    Whatever happens to us individually and collectively is as a consequence of our own deeds
    I'm not going to give a detailed response here .. other than to say that one must take verses in context.
    I'm sure you know that it doesn't mean that we should go round killing each other :rolleyes:
     
  12. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Yes, I edited my post before you responded. Whatever your religion believes, no-one is condemning your belief. It is you every day condemning the belief of others. It is against the rules of these forums.
     
  13. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    CoC
    We do not allow IO to be used either as a soapbox to aggressively promote any faith or political view, or see any faith or political view to be aggressively attacked.
     
  14. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    I agree :)
    ..so would you like me to take a break from participation in IO?
    I quite understand.

     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2021
  15. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    I do wonder then, why a Muslim expends so much effort in trying to undermine someone else's faith.

    Ask yourself that question.

    Such 'venom' was not particular to them, it was quite common in those days. We've grown more sophisticated over the centuries.

    +++

    On the wider issue, the point I was making is that if one applies the same degree of skepticism and dismissal as you do, then from that pov the foundations of Islam fall apart.

    I do not hold to your dogmas, nor do I have a need to challenge them.
     
  16. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    I was only trying to be helpful :)
    I hope that our dialogue has helped you to see a Muslim's perspective.
     
  17. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Oh, I understand the perspective.

    I just don't accept the choices of what's 'reliable' and what's not. ;) I tend to side with scholarship on that one.
     
  18. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    7. Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
    8. Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
    9. Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom.
    10. Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will exalt you.

    - James 4 -

    9. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
    - Matthew 5 -

    4. Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant
    - 1 Corinthians 13 -
     
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  19. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    May Victor Garaffa rest in peace .. Amen
     
  20. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    No disrespect of Islam or of Muslim people is intended or implied
     

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