Arian Christology

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by muhammad_isa, Feb 19, 2021.

  1. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    I totally agree. It's a quandary.
    Nevertheless, being in a position of responsibility for spiritual guidance is a serious post.
    Do you recall Rowan Williams, an archbishop of Canterbury?

     
  2. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Yes, which is a fair discussion, as long as one acknowledges the points previously made by others in the thread -- which is what discussion really is?
    This is the problem. Who is haunted by it? Does it haunt you?
    Trying to unravel what happened 1600 yrs ago is uncertain as you say, and interesting as the complexities unfold. It is not about making your mind up in advance to use it to try to force your own opinion about what Christianity should be?

    Even if Christians were polytheists (which it has been shown they are not) why is that your problem? If they believe in the crucifixion and resurrection, why is that your problem? You need to start learning to accept other faiths for what they are, not instructing them how they need be, in order to conform with your own ideas of what they need to be -- with at the same time only a very shallow knowledge of what they actually really are?

    And a complete unwillingness to hear or understand what they really are, but only to try to impose your own requirements upon them?
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2021
  3. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    Indeed .. I like @Thomas' posts.

    As I have said previously, I find some of his posts rather long.
    However, I have read them.
    We really need to define what we mean by "a trinity".
    The trinity that was established in the Nicene creed was very specific.

    A "barrage of assertions" in one long post is not something that I'm prepared to discuss.
     
  4. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    It's unbelievable that you can post this with a straight face. Of course the church does not stand still. Next thing you are accusing the church of changing too much -- when it goes against the values you think it should maintain.
    Accurate passages from relevant historical documents, you mean?
    Who needs to?
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2021
  5. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    @muhammad_isa
    Requires Catholics to lose the trinity, the crucifixion and resurrection, the eucharist and sacraments, the crucifix and stained glass portraits -- I'm sure the list goes on -- to make Moslems happy. Nothing anyone says will have the slightest effect upon what he has already decided. Definitely nothing I say will ...
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2021
  6. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    ..whether they are right or wrong is not the point.
    If anybody wishes to "draw points" from his essays / long posts, then I can pass comment.

    WE do .. if we wish to argue that Jesus believed in the Nicene creed, that is.
     
  7. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    Incidentally, that's what I think V. Garaffa's general articles are .. a "barrage of assertions" :)
    Some I agree with .. some I don't.
     
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  8. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Fair enough. I'm sure in all the years those articles have been there, not one single person has properly read through a single one of them, lol
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2021
  9. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Hi Tony –
    Ah ... Two 'spirits'?

    Quite so, but needs to be understood in context, and is one of many titles used in the Scriptures.

    Rather how we view the Baha'i, I'm afraid. ;)
     
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  10. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Arius never mentions the Trinity, nor the Holy Spirit ... it was Christology, that's what you seem unable to comprehend. Arius' theology would suggest an hierarchical Trinity.
     
  11. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    I get this: the Christ incarnate as non-temporal Spirit upon the temporal horizontal axis of nature?
    Again the idea that Christians -- eventually meaning Papist Catholics -- are just a lot of ignorant sheep, unable to form an original thought and totally subjected to the dogma and the yoke of their very nasty church masters

    EDIT
    But in principle I do get a lot of what @Tone Bristow-Stagg is saying
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2021
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  12. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    Hmm .. this is why I said we need to define what we mean by "the trinity".
    OF COURSE Arius didn't mention "the trinity" .. he was arguing against it :)
    i.e. trinity as in the Nicene creed

    To you it clearly does. But what would that actually mean in practice?
    How can the Father be God and the Son be God .. but the eternal Father is greater than the created Son?
    I assume that is what you think Arius meant by his "philosophy", for want of a better word.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2021
  13. Tone Bristow-Stagg

    Tone Bristow-Stagg Active Member

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    The role of the Trinity in Christianity, I see fulfilled the warnings about adding to the scriptures.

    The Trinity has become the main casue of preventing Christains from excepting the returns promised in the Scripture.

    History is a great lesson. Every time a Message has been given, eventually it's teachings are influenced by men and the light ceases to shine.

    That is why God gave us a Covenant that we would never be left without guidance. It is up to us to decide when that guidance is given, as that is also part of the Covernant. God gives the guidance, we are to embrace it.

    Regards Tony
     
  14. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Because you're taking the terms literally Muhammad. Father is not literally Father, and Son is not literally Son. Those are kindergarden human terms. There's a lot more to it than you want there to be.
     
  15. Tone Bristow-Stagg

    Tone Bristow-Stagg Active Member

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    Thanks for conversing Thomas.

    In a talk by Abdul'baha, Abdu'lbaha explains that there is 5 levels of Spirit.

    1 Vegetable
    2 Animal
    3 Human
    4 Spirit of Faith
    5 Holy Spirit.

    There is much written on this topic.

    I would add a scientific thought on how this spirit levels unfolds in this world. We now know that trees communicate.

    Regards Tony
     
  16. Tone Bristow-Stagg

    Tone Bristow-Stagg Active Member

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    As you can Thomas, but the history of Heresy in the Church, does not reflect what I have offered in good spirit.

    Regards Tony
     
  17. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    If 'God' is the unchanging vertical Spirit axis, then 'Christ' is the temporal incarnation upon the horizontal axis of nature, antahkarana bridge manifest symbol figure-of-eight shifting axis infinity flow
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2021
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  18. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    Nope .. I am not arguing against the convential trinity here. The Nicene creed states:

    Why "very God of very God" ?
    To differentiate between "not so God" perhaps?
    ..because that's what Arius believed .. "not so God" .. lesser .. created.
     
  19. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Last edited: Feb 26, 2021
  20. Tone Bristow-Stagg

    Tone Bristow-Stagg Active Member

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    The way I currently see this (note I say currently) is that the story of the Virgin Birth is a Metephor for deeper understanding of our Spiritual Nature.

    As we know the Human spirit is given to us at conception. This spirit is created on the edge of darkness and the beginning of light and is the potential we are born with, but we need guidance, education and the Spirit of Faith to reach that potential, to be born again into light of the Holy Spirit.

    The Holy Spirit is pre-existing it is the giver of life and I see this is the Potential that the Messenger is born with, they are the givers of Life. So though they are born from the womb of a mother, they in reality are born of the Holy Spirit.

    It will be a great day, when war has ceased and man collectively puts our mind into faith and science and discover all that we can be.

    Regards Tony
     

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