Fulfilment of a modern pro-Zionist prophecy in the Quran

Fulfilment of a modern pro-Zionist prophecy in the Quran

I’ll start this with the correct definition first. Zionism = the idea of and the fact of the return of the remnant of Israelites (known by the name of the majority tribe of “Judeans/Jews”) back to their ancestral, promised and historical land. This is a complete proof of a prophecy and support of Zionism in the Quran.

It might look long, but it's not, please read along. Thus far, it seems that I am the only one who discovered this proof down to the original wording in Arabic. If you Google such terms as "Quran is Zionist" or "Zionism in the Quran", you won't find this exact proof, other than in a forum I posted it in in 2011 and then updated in 2019 with an undisputable version (which you will see here). Other than that, you will only find half-proofs that can be easily refuted or based on faulty translations!

As you will see below, the majority of the translations of the Quran into English and other languages from its original Old Arabic language in which it was originally written down, mis-translate a key prophetic pro-Zionist verse, literally prophesying the return of Israelite diasporas out of all the nations back to their historical, promised land, to hide Quran's clear support and prophecy of Zionism, contrary to Quranic prohibition of and warnings against (mis-translating) or twisting God's word out of context. These translators have done what God condemns many times in the Quran itself – twisting/mistranslating words/verses to say/mean something else from their true meaning/what they really say.

There is also a hadith (story) where Muhammad is asked how are Jews not worshipping God, he says they are following their rabbis' interpretations of Tanakh (which isn’t really true, the Oral Law aka Talmud explains the Written Law aka Tanakh [which includes the Torah], but this hadith is sahih/real, as it is in line with the assertions found in the Quran regarding Judaism). Whether the mullahs'/sheikhs' interpretation of these Quranic verses in original Arabic, or whether the current Arabic-language Qurans, twisted the prophetic verse by directly changing the words in it to make the verse say something other than what it originally said; or whether the mis-translators into English and Russian, and probably all other language mis-translations of this verse, did so deliberately -- all these cases are condemned by the above hadith and the Quran itself many, many times.

Below is a website with a full copy of Quran translated word-by-word from its original Old Arabic to English, and the webmasters have done a great favour to everyone by providing a concordance of each Quranic word – showing all the other places in the Quran where the same Arabic word is used (which can be accessed by clicking on the word), so that by seeing the same Arabic word within each context/verse in the Quran, the proper meaning can be arrived at! That’s what concordance means, it’s a list showing all the places where a certain word occurs in a text, so that each context in which that certain word is used can be known.

HERE IS THE PROOF, word by word, in http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp? :

Go to the above link. Click on drop down menu, and find chapter 17 and verse 4. Then, in verse 5, notice the key Arabic word "wadu" (promise/warning). Continue to verse 6. Then, in verse 7, notice the TWO Arabic key words "wadu" (promise/warning) and "l-akhirati" (the last [second] of the promises/warnings). Read verse 8. Now, jump to verse 104, where God used the same Arabic words - "l-akhirati" and "wadu" - and also the Arabic word "lafifan" (click on it, and you will see the meanings of "entwined [of multiple parts]/thick foliage/wound around each other"), to say the Israelites (of which Jews, which historically also included some other tribes [Benjamin, Simon, Levi at the least], are the remaining, identifiable tribe today) will be brought back to the Promised Land (as they were in verse 6, true to history, from Babylonian Captivity), after the last ("l-akhirati") promise/warning ("wadu") comes to pass, with the LAST in-gathering being from out of multiple nations (verse 104 - "lafifan": entwined of/from multiple peoples/nations) in which they were living in their exile from the Promised Land. So, the last promise/warning lasted for almost 1900 years (Second Temple was destroyed in 70 AD by Romans).

The Quranic prophecy refers to the "Children of Israel", but given the context of the Quranic verses, refers to the Southern Kingdom (Judah, and Benjamin, Levi, and Simon, which assimilated to Judah and started being identified as Judeans/Jews under Roman occupation and after the exile) and not to the Northern Kingdom (a.k.a. 10 Lost Tribes), who were exiled by Assyria and were lost to history before the destruction of the First Temple in Jerusalem, assimilating to various populations of the Middle East and beyond, and losing their distinct identity as Israelites. It was a Temple and capital (Jerusalem) which these 10 Tribes never recognized, and fell into idol worship, for which God caused them to be exiled and lose their self-identity as Israelites, except a few of them left in place (Samaritans).

This is proved in the Quran by its description of the "first warning" as being the destruction of the First Temple along with the first exile and captivity (Babylonian Captivity) of the remaining tribes, followed by the remaining tribes’ (Judah, Benjamin, Levites and Simonites) return to their land, and then "the second warning" as being the destruction of the Second Temple by Rome and the remaining tribes’ last and final exile – lasting almost 1900 years – followed by a prophecy in Surah 17:104 that, "when the second warning comes to pass (i.e. is over/behind them/has passed)", God will cause them to be brought back to their land out of all the countries where their exile took them (verbatim and literally - "INTERTWINED multitude/out of multitude of nations").

We can also corroborate the above proof with:

1. History/Reality, which shows the return of the remnant of Israelites (Jews/Judeans, but includes other assimilated tribes) as a "crowd/group - made/entwined - out of multiple parts/out of multiple nations" back to the Promised Land, and which shows Israel withstanding and successfully defending itself against a multitude of Arabic nations who declared war on it and tried to destroy it multiple times in its short history, beginning with its birth, which could only be by the will of God;

2. Logic. Looking at the other verses and then at 17:104, it could only make sense if it was prophesying the future return of the remnant of Israelites back to Israel;

3. Confirmation in the Tanakh/Bible. The Tanakh/Bible prophesies a future return of the remnant of Israelites back to the Holy Land. Read Deuteronomy 4:27, 28:64, 28:36; Leviticus 26:33; Jeremiah 16:13; Amos 9:9; and compare with Quran 2:97, 3:3, 4:47, 6:92, 37:37, and many other verses like it throughout it.

Interestingly, the same site above which provides word-by-word translation, also provides the same MISTRANSLATIONS for those who find word-by-word translation tedious, including the front-page translation it provides at www.quran.com, and the 7 popular English translations at http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp (go to "English translation" on the left). You can also access another popular Islamic website at https://www.islamawakened.com/index.php/qur-an Click Islam Awakened on top menu and see literally dozens of MISTRANSLATIONS provided, the majority of which mis-translate the verse 17:104 in the Quran to say "Hereafter" or "Afterlife" or "World to come" (Judgement Day), while given the context and wording in previous verses, it should be translated as "last/final of the warnings".

If anyone says "Israel was established by the hands of people, not God!", God also acts thru people/nations. Proof is that Judea was exiled 1900 years ago ALSO by the hands of people - the Romans - and if it wouldn't have been the will of God, it would not have happened, and God decrees failure or success in all matters, including when Israel successfully defended itself against many Arab nations.

The concept that God also acts thru people/nations, is also backed up by the same Quranic verses I quoted above, and is also very frequently found in the Tanakh/Bible. (Side note: “Tanakh” is the Hebrew/Jewish term for the combination of all the books of the Torah, the books of the Prophets, and the books of Writings. “Bible” is the Christian term that includes the Tanakh [the original Christian Bibles had Greek translations of the Hebrew Tanakh] and additionally the Christian Holy Texts.)

If anyone says "More than half of all Judeans in the world live outside Israel, so the prophecy is not fulfilled!", the fact is, it is in the process of being fulfilled, and half of it is already fulfilled, and if it wasn’t for the opposition and wars against Israel on all fronts from the Arab and Muslim countries/communities and their non-Muslim allies’ worldwide, it could have been fulfilled already! Such a reply also comes from ignorance of history – the expulsion of Jews from Judea, which the Romans then re-named to Palestine after the Philistines (a long-time enemy of the early Israelites) to spite/disrespect Judeans due to our multiple rebellions against Roman occupation of Judea, also happened in multiple waves!

So this ingathering happening in multiple waves is a reflection of our exile having been in multiple waves! This is also supported by the prophecies in the Tanakh/Bible - Isaiah 43:6 and Psalm 107:3 (Psalms are called Zabur in the Quran).

So the fact that more than half of all Judeans are still living outside of Israel does not refute the prophecies in the Tanakh and the Quran. All it means is that the first waves of our ingathering have already happened. Just as we were exiled in multiple waves, so will our ingathering back to our ancestral, Promised Land happen in multiple waves (and it already happened several times). From the beginnings of the re-birth of Israel up through today, Judeans from ALL countries where the exile took us have immigrated back to the Holy, Promised Land of our ancestors.

As a matter of fact, the biggest reason why the majority of other Judeans are still living in the countries of our exile is because of the Arab, Muslim and their non-Muslim allies' resistance against Israel's very existence – whether militarily, politically, economically, judicially, verbally, or through any other means – and it all hinges upon the bedrock of the ignorant resistance: the so-called "Muslims'’ ignorance of the prophecy in the Quran, or wilful opposition to it, of the return of the remnant of the Israelites back to our ancestral, Promised Land from which we were exiled 1800-2000 years ago.


+ + +


If anyone can successfully dispute this, please do so. I regret and have a lot of heartache and headache for not realizing for so long that I should have, and should, spread this. The main reason why I am spreading this, in addition to that it's the right thing to do, is because I deduced this proof 10 years ago when I was 22, and didn’t spread it, and I feel that, looking back, God sent me many signs, and I didn’t realize it, and finally punished me, and even then I didn’t realize it, and I feel keeps punishing me for keeping it to myself all this time.

I feel very close to the Prophet Jonah’s story. This could have, can and will save many lives if the whole world knew about this, or even half of it, or at least half of all Muslims! When even 10% know about it, then most and then all knowing about it, is within easy reach!

 

Thread returned from moderation area to Abrahamic Religions section after editing and consultation with @Yashar

 

Yashar, welcome to the list.

It is something that is hard for us (the current church, the elect since pentecost) to admit, that the story does not begin or end with us. We have been wearing blinders in a way ourselves, but it has remained an open secret that Israel herself, which was in part blinded until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in, will be restored. When I say restored, I mean not just a physical return to the promised land but a spiritual one. It has been in the works for a long time I think, happening behind the scenes. What I am saying is that God has not cast away his people completely, but temporarily, and in order to build a better future for them (and through them, all of us).

Now how exactly this will come about, what it will look like on the ground, I don't know. I fantasized a few times in my life about moving to Israel, but am not sure that would be in the works for me. It is clear that something new is coming, and that as far as Christianity is concerned, we have as of yet seen only one shoe drop. The other is coming. It will be more thunderous than the first. But again, my view is limited.

It is at moments like these when I'm the most sad at being broken, when I would long to take to the air but find that I am earthbound, the wings won't work. Others will, however, take to the air and it's not too far away (I hope). There's not much more I can write at the moment. Only read the 11th chapter of Romans, let the blinders fall away, and you will see what I'm talking about. No wonder so many have tried to erase Paul or in some way diminish his importance and work. So much hangs in the balance there. It's in the prophets as well, just needs eyes to see and ears to hear. Just a couple of verses from Romans and I surrender myself to whatever this day may bring.

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! -- Romans 11:25-33

 

@stranger -

After awhile the whole Jews are spiritually blind, somehow spirtually lacking, thing becomes rather tiresome. Your post either ignores or fails to recognize or understand 2,000+ years of Jewish spiritual growth and spiritual wisdom.

I realize that you meant to say something of a positive nature. Unfortunately, you did not.

 

Thank you Rabbi for the correction.

 

Re: the OP: l've honestly no clue what you are trying to say and as usual with obscure concepts, they are intricate, yet weak, ephemeral.
It reminds me of Qur'an 29:41: "lo! the frailest of all houses is the spider's house, if they but knew."

Yes, the Jewish spirituality borrowed massively from Islamic spirituality developed during the Golden Age of Islamic civilisation: http://www.tomblock.com/shalom_sofia

Do you give recognition my friend?

Examples:
- The Sufi Al-Makki's "Qutt al Qulub" (Stations of the Heart) presaged the Sephirot of the Tree of Life (l don't think this is mentioned on Tom Block's site)
- Quote Tom Block: re: the Islamic Mediterreanean origins of the Kabbalah:
"No mystical teaching so defines Jewish spirituality as does the Kabbalah. With its roots supposedly sunk in deepest Jewish history-by some accounts stretching all the way back to Moses, Abraham or even Adam-the Kabbalah has remained at the center of Jewish worship from its true inception in the 13th century. Whether scholars believe it to have flowered into being with the Jewish spiritual renaissance of the 13th century, or thought that it was the recovered lore of second century rabbinical elders, one central idea has never been challenged: That the Kabbalah was an entirely Jewish creation.

... Despite the repeated protestations to the contrary, Sufism was infused into the Kabbalah from the outset. Sufism was endemic around the Mediterranean basin, surrounding Kabbalistic philosophers. Islamic mystics were not only ubiquitous in the areas where the Kabbalah emerged, but they had already blazed a trail in the same mystical directions in which the Kabbalah would follow. While Jewish mysticism of the visceral, prophetic sort had been a decentralized, flaccid affair over the several hundred years prior to the 9th century, during this time the Sufis had been assiduously following a path of personal union with God. It is only natural that when the impetus for Jewish mystical thought burst forth, Jewish Kabbalists would look to their spiritual cousins for guidance in this area."

- Quote Tom Block, re: S. Yesirah: "An Islamic text of virtually the same name, Secret of Creation-a book said to have been written during the time of the Caliph al-Mamun (813-833)-predated the Sefer Yetzirah by a century or so"


By the way, Tom Block's site is a real eye opener re: the phenomenon of Islamic-Jewish cordial relations and the phenomenon of Jewish Sufism. If you are happy to investigate such things, but l know some might want a "pure Jewish Kabbalah" as Tom Block explains.

 

Why do I like IO?

Primarily because discussions that step outside my 'comfort zones' lead me into areas of investigation that I usually find fruitful, educational and sometimes enlightening.

This is just such an example —

Tom Block's book looks like an interesting read. In a review I took this (via the reviewer) from its epilogue:
"The purpose of this study is not simply to outline the deep connection between Judaism and Islam, but also to begin the vital process of acknowledgement. Although political issues currently separate the two People, their paths are deeply and undeniably intertwined ... Jews and Muslims must recognise how much they share at the very core of their spiritual beings."

In the reviewer's words: "As a rabbi concerned with creating unity among the children of Abraham, I couldn’t agree more. Block has given those of us seeking to acknowledge one another a tremendous gift in Shalom/Salaam: A Story of Mystical Fraternity."
The full review is here. Pamela Jay Gottfried is a rabbi and teacher of World Religions at the Brill Institute for Jewish Learning.

This sparks my interest because the language of the mystic and mysticism in general is esoteric, and thus at heart formless, because it speaks of the interface between the Absolute and the Relative; Essence and Substance, Atma and Maya.

So I dive into my sources and my search turned up this ... please excuse the lengthy quote:

"Since the nineteenth century, Western scholars researched the resemblance and transfer of doctrines and practices between Kabbalah and Sufiism and suggested that these movements represent Jewish and Islamic mysticism. These ideas became prevalent among the broader public, and they are especially popular among neo-Sufi and neo-Kabbalistic circles and interfaith activists...

"This chapter will survey the evidence ... It will show that although there is some resemblance between ideas and practices of some Kabbalistic and Sufi circles, there is evidence of only very few historical interactions between Kabbalists and Sufis. The connections between Kabbalah and Sufism were dependent mostly on shared sources, rather than on personal encounters."
("'A Remarkable Resemblance:' Comparative Mysticism and the Study of Sufism and Kabbalah" by Boaz Huss)

The commonality of mystical experience and expression is seen wherever traditions rub shoulders, as it were:

"This article explores common ground between understandings of the spiritual life held by the fourth-century Desert Father John Cassian and the eleventh-century Sufi mystic al-Ghazali. Both refer to the spiritual life as a journey to God, to the purity of heart and practice of unceasing prayer required for that journey, and to the important role of praying selected, scripturally-based phrases. The article argues that, by investigating these themes, Christian and Muslim scholars can engender constructive interreligious dialogue between their traditions, without homogenising their distinct faiths. While claiming that there are striking correlations between Cassian and al-Ghazali at certain points, the article also acknowledges that there are many distinctive features, including some irreducible differences."
(A Common Vision: John Cassian and al-Ghazali's Correlative Conceptions of the Spiritual Life Brock Bingaman, from the Journal of Islam and Christian-Muslim Relations, Volume 20, Issue 2, 2009)

And, of course, the links go back further:
"There are several interesting connections and cultural transfers between Sufism and Kabbalah. Philosophical – especially Neoplatonic – sources were an important source for both Sufis and Kabbalists."
(From "Remarkable Resemblance", above)

 

I wonder where is @Yashar?

 

Yes there is a joint destiny between the Muslim and Jewish people, we have a prophecy that a great reformer will one day be born, called the Mahdi, and he will reveal the lost Ark and the True Torah, from a mountain somewhere in modern Syria. From this event, most of the world's remaining Jewry will finally enter into Islam.

I say "remaining Jewry" because what many may not realise is that a huge swathe of the people of the Middle East, particularly the Levant + West Persia (modern Iraq) were Hebrews, and Jewish, that converted to Islam quite early on.

There is also prophecy of a terrible conflict with the remaining Jews but l don't think it's suitable to mention on this forum, plus the context - at a very strange epoch in the distant future - makes relating the event more than strange in today's context. You will note that this didn't at all prevent cordial relations between Muslims and Jews throughout the past 1,200 years or so. We treated the People of the Book with the honour prescribed by our religion.

In fact this leads me to the next point:

I notice you are discretely countering the point l - and more trenchantly, Tom Block - made. Your quotes indicate that there were "only very few historical interactions between Kabbalists and Sufis".

Just to be clear:
1. I am not so much talking about the people as the literature. Transmission via literature doesn't need to be tete a tete.
2. Kabbalists as such rapidly became a more North European people as the Jews left the Mediterranean, so there weren't many Muslims in Poland, so no, there wouldn't be much physical contact but this is a bit misleading because the time frame is being shifted so that's 1 more reason not to make it about the -ists, the -ism is where it's at.
3. There were huge amounts of contacts between Muslims, Jews and Christians within Islamic lands, it's remiss of the articles you quoted to ignore this.

The specific Tom Block article l cited is crammed with examples but l'll get to the most comestible concept of interactions:

"The Sefer Yetzirah emerged during a wonderfully amicable time between the two Biblical cousins, when Jews were included even in the highest intellectual circles of the Islamic caliph's court in Baghdad!vi This was a mere couple of hundred years after the emergence of Islam-and the Jewish lore and many Jewish converts who had helped in the early development of certain aspects of Islamic thought were still fresh influences, allowing for openly porous relations between the two religions."


Further points:
- You mention Neo-Platonism. Indeed, the spiriual sciences under Islam, i.e. metaphysics, drew heavily on neo-Platonism and Pythagoreanism, you'll see attribution to greats like Apollonius of Tyana (Balinus?) and so on. In fact some Muslims considered Plato a prophet (we believe every nation had prophets aforetimes, each warned against the terrible one to come in the last days, but all their teachings were lost), but some considered him a goetian (is that the right term?).
- The spiritual experience is universal though
- Very nice point about the mystic experience being esoteric, l'm assuming you were referring to my saying on your Incarnation thread that Islam is exoteric and the extreme sects being discussed (extreme as in, ideologically way, way out, even extreme to Shi'ism, to which the term is actually being compared) were esoteric.

I have said elsewhere that paradise is esoteric.
I have said in a response to "stranger" elsewhere that in the mystical experience, there's a point where the seeker must be carried, they can't go forward by their own means.
So ... the experiences themselves are for the select few. Esoteric if you will. It follows that peculiar language about the experiences might be considered esoteric.

However, the -ist is once again in the wrong (though i'll admit the -ism is too, as it's manmade - read on). They make it esoteric, not God. This is wrong. It is God that selects, not man.

Moreover l think the esotericists weren't really about the mysticism we're discussing here, though when they were on the run, they would absorb into Sufi orders. The esotericism of those sects was more: worship god, and so worship this person, who is god incarnate. That person is now dead? No problemo. Souls migrate. Transmigration of souls is a key doctrine with the esotericists. Now you can worship his successor, who is his predecessor incarnated again, and who is in turn, God

It is basically a money scheme because you pay your tithe (or greater) to him. Not that he's a state and so you get infrastructure, healthcare etc. back. No, you just pay your tithe and get nothing back - from what l understand, correct me if i'm wrong.

There's a slightly darker aspect in that we have an accursed one that is said to one day appear in our community (he will come as a Muslim), the worst catastrophe to befall mankind. He will do all these things. First a man, a reformer, then a prophet, then a messiah, then God incarnate. That's why l was telling you on the Incarnation thread that there was a point to it all, the deus ex machina removal of Jesus was not arbitrary. The Christology shall find its home in a dark way in our eschatology. The conflation of messiah and God is understood in this eschatology too, as part of a sequence, of the accursed one ramping up in power or something. I don't know, l don't want to put you down, l'm just saying.

Feel free to reply, l'm not sure we're any longer on topic so l've finished this topic as far as l'm concerned, plus l don't want to end up with a deity complex. It's okay for you as you've studied it academically and so you can handle it but for me,speaking of religous matters is quite a burden my friend! Also there's the spiritual hangover afterwards. It's a marvellous story though, you'll agree and l hope l have improved people's understanding of my religion, which is very much despised at the moment.

 

Well I'm not sure Tom Block is as trenchant as you, LOL, but yes. Basically trying to keep the dialogue civil and conversational.

Quite.

Well, the articles were subject specific. It's down to me (or you) to hunt out Jewish/Christian/Muslim interactions.

As did we all! The world could hardly do otherwise.

Some Christians assumed Plato had learned from Moses.

Don't know it? Goethian? A Poet?

As I understand it, all authentic religions have an exoteric and esoteric element. Is not Sufism esoteric?

That's how I understand it. I do not accept the idea of esoteric 'short-cuts' or 'how to' ideas. You cannot storm the gates of heaven, and if Union with the Divine is the goal, it's utterly dependent upon the divine drawing one upward.

One cannot 'transcend' oneself under one's own steam, that's a contradiction.

If we were including Buddhists in this debate, we'd be obliged to acknowledge jiriki ('self-power') and tariki ('other-power').

I'm not sure who or what '–ist' you're referring to here.

Again, I'm not sure what esotericists you're referring to? I'm not sure of the sect you mean in your following statements.

I offer my every sympathy for the unfair burden contemporary culture places on the Muslim's shoulders!

I once (twice, in fact) had the pleasure of hearing Martin Lings speak. A convert to Islam, Lings took the name Abū Bakr Sirāj ad-Dīn, and became a Sufi attached to the Alawiyya tariqa. At the end of one presentation the floor was opened to questions, and someone asked about the political situation in the Middle East. "I don't want to talk about that," Lings replied quite sharply, and we all agreed. That kind of discussion leads nowhere, really.

 

I can only offer that the Prophecies in the Bible and Koran have indeed been fulfilled.

How we choose to see them is an entirely different story with as many tangents as there are people.

Regards Tony

 

A bit anachronistic maybe, but possibly referring to a practitioner of the magical system of the Goetia, as detailed in medieval grimoires such as the Lesser Key of Solomon? A magician dealing with demons, in other words?

 

Thomas, great post here. As usual my mind works funny and tends toward a lazer-like focus only when something "clicks" for me. I had intended to respond to another part of this post but am feeling some nervous anxiety today, so ended up actually doing away with the part I had intended to respond to. When my hands stopped shaking, this is the portion I was left with.

After reading it again, I liked it more and more.

Yes, very good point. Tariki is definitely the way to finish our quest. Jiriki at some point of necessity falls by the wayside, having served it's purpose. In a baseball analogy, Jiriki would be like a starting pitcher and Tariki the closer.

We come upon the veil at some point (I read your article on this, quite good) and find it impossible to go beyond. To penetrate the veil (in experience, in reality, or beyond our own reality as some would have it) one must be carried upward by the divine, self-effort having been left behind.

What is left, I believe, is surrender to the divine accompanied by an intense love for it. This I think was the way of the Sufis -- they were above all men and women who were deeply in love. One can hardly read Rumi without seeing it. Those poems are love letters. Coming to mind also is the story of Rabia (I lost my little copy of Charles Upton's treating of her, might see if I can get a kindle version). This is the story of a woman so in love with the divine that Allah would move heaven and earth to bring it to her even when she was unable to make the customary pilgrimages. She loved, the divine responded. What could be more beautiful than that.

But yes, surrender to the all-encompassing divine fire is the only option when you have reached such a point of impasse. It's rather frightening and exhilarating at the same time to know you must be carried. Even more so to know that the divine will in fact carry you and desires very much to do so. Not just a theory or a concept anymore but a living reality. The catholic mystics like St. John of the Cross were very accurate to refer to such things as a ravishing of the spirit.

 

Thomas, everybody is aware of the House of Wisdom in Baghdad, the society of Moorish Spain and the Jewish-Muslim society in mediaeval North Africa. It's a drag to point out the obvious, that is my contention. To the man on the street this might need pointing out, but you are better researched. That's why l was also surprised that you would elsewhere make arguments of the type "The core sacred text of Islam copied windows from the <....> !" e.g. that the Qur'an copied this or that Bible story, when it could have been that God is real, those personages were real, and so the real histories were also recorded in the Qur'an. You effectively impose a Christian narrative and preclude interfaith discussion. Sure there is far worse in the Bible (dashing the babies of Babylon against the rocks, anyone?) and on this site, part of why l wish to leave actually, the abuse in this place isn't normal, and it is part of faith to avoid such places - but you are an academic, i'm surprised at your stern absolutist statements (even if mere quotes) in a round table setting (although as l say, the forum transpires to be a bit of a loony bin so maybe you're working on that latter basis in which case anything goes - doffs cap).

I think people like Euclid and Pythagoras may have been prophets in their own right, maybe Plato too. I said their works were lost now, but what l meant was, their direct gospels, their religous messages, with only more mundane stuff remaining?

I meant like Goetic, sort of demon-worshipping. I read an ancient contention that he worshipped the goat or something like that, l think the expression meant that he was in some dark fraternal order. Seems odd to me because l thought the occult fraternal orders began with the Ikhwan as Safa, or rather, branched off from them, the Ikhwan as Safa were actually quite enlightened and progressive. I didn't realise the occult orders went back even further but then again l did read about the Carpocratians, l even spoke to a girl who told me some guy shook her hand and wiggled his finger on her palm, which l later found to be a Carpocratian handshake - amazing to hear it happening in the 2000s, in a unisex setting too. OK what was the topic? Oh yeah, l didn't realise occult societies were around at Plato's time, but then again of course they would have been l mean what was ancient Egypt and Babylon about ...

Plato did write some dark things, e.g. separating kids from their moms. Then again it may have been later edits, like as the Bible itself claims happened to the Bible.

I don't get how esoteric makes a religion authentic. But l'll stick to my previous statements that Islam has no esoteric element. Feel free to regard it as inauthentic
As l explained, the mystic experience is esoteric, as is paradise, but to make it esoteric is a bad thing. Man shouldn't make spiritual matters esoteric. It's for God to do.

There is a type of sect we call "Batini". Batin means "inner", and is one of the 99 Names of God. Batinis are literally "esotericists". That is what l mean by esoteric sects.

Sufis are mostly just vagabonds and the like.
Some are quite successful though, and l've even heard of one or two British nobility becoming Sufi, which is nice.
A lot of the time a Sufi lodge would be just a workplace, and they would imbue the tools of their trade with mystical meaning, and hence their life would be a complete cycle of worship, from family life and not thinking about God, to prayer times, and then to work where they would maintain communion with God, in those days their lives depended on their catch of fish so it got very personal, very spiritual. So you have Ora et Labora without the celibacy - that was quite a common Sufi lifestyle.

I suspect most Sufis are people we wouldn't think much of though, like vagabonds. I would dread to become like that, It's a hard price to pay for being loved by God.

Yes that's nice, l wrote about it on another thread, everything in the universe wants this union.

Esotericist / Esotericism, these are manmade obfustications, whereas the mystical experience is God-made.

Batinis, as explained just a bit above this sentence. To name a few batini sects:
- Isma'ilism
- 'Alawism
- Nusayrism (if it's different to Alawism, l'm not sure)
- Druzism (but they don't claim to be Muslims)
- Various other long lost sects like the Stranglers, the Karmathites, etc.
Typically, you'll need to be a registered member to join these sects.

I think the most famous are the Isma'ilis. I actually like the Isma'ilis somewhat but ultimately l cannot reconcile their esotericism with how l feel faith should be.

Dude, please, there's no need. I'm not saying we cannot cope with modern times, we're a bit slow etc. etc. I'm just saying: we experience a lot of hatred and negative media coverage. I note your sarcasm and your incoming denial in the next post. OK then l accept you didn't mean it like that (again)

Anyway Thomas l hope you one day pick up the Quran from a good translator (not the Muhsin Khan translation !) and also a nice direct translation of our hadith texts, and read them cover to cover. That's the way l learned about Islam, l just gave it a fair hearing. Peace my Christian bro! )) i mean it.

 

By the way, if l have said anything untrue about Christianity or the Bible do let me know and l'll do a cameo to reckon for it and maybe apologise. I don't like to be in error over anything.

 

I really dislike this story. The story goes that she ran around with a fire and a pail of water, to burn heaven and extinguish hell respectively. I wouldn't reject any of God's rewards nor would l presume l could destroy hell when it's there to back justice up. Our faith consists in moderation, as our Prophet (peace be upon him) taught us. Not extreme views.

I dislike when people say they dont want the gold and fine clothing and spouses and other rewards of heaven, they just want God. I want that gold, l want that food. God offered it because it's good stuff and he made it for me. I'm not going to be ungrateful. I will do good works to get that gold and food and the beautiful women. Others may claim they wanna sit on a spike forever. Good on them but l won't reject whatever God has to offer. Even a fingernail portion of heaven is better than anything on earth so l want anything l can get of heaven. As l say though, the Sufis often agree with their detractors so maybe Rabia would agree with me.

 

Well Sufi, although no saint myself, I tend to agree with you here. I think the key is "whatever God has to offer". If God is truly offering it, how can it be wrong. I love his blessings in whatever form they come. My experience is, one should always look for God in the unexpected, and receive it with thanksgiving. I suspect Rabia, if she were in your shoes and circumstances would do the same. Times, places, circumstances, differences in people, all play a part. God finds a way to bless us in sprite of ourselves.

 

Yep. But maybe she truly had a higher love, who knows? But if she did, then l'm sure she'd also endorse my disapproval, just as an adult would understand why their infant is crying because it won't snow, even though the adult absolutely dreads snow days.

 

This is in the context of Babylonian captivity, written by people who had recently witnessed their own children so treated by their Babylonian captors. Just explaining the context and the times.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm 137&version=NIV

 

Very good Sufi, exciting possibility. I personally would like to think she did because I don't like loneliness.

Now, now Sufi. The infant needs training and supervision, no less understanding, and hopefully love? Though this latter is sorely missing sometimes in our modern society. Infants do grow up however and the "adult" is tasked with coming to terms with what they themselves have raised. (The former infant will have questions.)

This is razor sharp however, I have to admire. Has some teeth, has some claws.