Then I must profess my ignorance, in the case of the House of Wisdom, I know only in passing, and no idea about J-M society in medieval NA. As for Moorish Spain, I am aware of a level of culture – the example I use is the hospital in Cordoba where ideas such as ventilation, isolation and good hygiene were the norm, something that would not appear in British hospitals until centuries later. As I understand it, the 16th century Renaissance was kick-started by trade with North Africa. Well I'm not getting into a 'I said/you said' here, but I think you're misreading me. I do not hold quite the same polemic standpoint as yourself. Well for someone who seemed to imply that the Kaballah is entirely derived from Sufi teachings, this made me smile. As for our being a 'loony bin' then if that is the case, I'll take that as a reference to a diversity of opinion. If you find that unacceptable, I'm sorry. Not everything derives from Islam, my friend. The origin of occult fraternities is lost in the mists of Antiquity. The impetus is universal. The 'Mystery Cults' of Greece and Rome. There are texts going back millennia, and indeed references implied in the Hebrew Scriptures, as well as Simon Magus in Acts 8:9-24. "What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun." Ecclesiastes 1:9 You misread me. By authentic religion I was distancing myself from pseudo religion. Probably better we left that one go ... What I meant was, authentic religion, or perhaps authentic Revelation, speaks to the whole person, in all places and at all times. It will necessarily be couched in the language of the day, but its message is timeless and universal, by virtue of its Source. Thank you, I regard it as mistaken. I'm frankly surprised you chose the name SufiPhilosopher, both suggest esoterism, a seeing beyond the surface. I think we hold different ideas about what constitutes 'esoteric'. As I have said elsewhere, Divine Revelation is neither esoteric nor exoteric, these two terms are human categories, not divine ones. Revelation is one, and esoteric and exoteric are perspectives or degrees of interpretation. "Go and tell this people, 'Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.' ... Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed." (Isaiah 6:9-10) "He (Jesus) replied, "The knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, 'though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.'" (Luke 8:10). I repeat, it's not to do with God, it's to do with our perception. Agreed. Really, as soon as man opens his mouth, there's a degree of clarity, a degree of obfuscation ... it's the nature of the beast.