The soul: A view of its origin

Discussion in 'Theology' started by Thomas, Apr 13, 2021.

  1. stranger

    stranger wolfwing, a feral angel

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    Hey Thomas, good to speak with you again.

    His writings are very spiritual, and although I doubt he would ever lay claim to being a mystic, most surely he was that and more. I remember as a young man I was seeing things in his writings that were so frightening to me that I once threw one of his books (Types In Genesis I think) across the room. It's just that what I was seeing there was so contrary to what I was and what I thought I wanted out of life.

    Yes, I remember gathering from your posts that you were fed from the writings of the Traditionalists. I have only read 2 from there, though I think they were quite good. One was Schuon's main book, "The Transcendent Unity of Religions". The other was from Guenon, "Perspectives On Initiation". The Guenon book was especially heavy reading but good. I have also read "The Sword of Gnosis" which was more of an anthology of quotes from Traditionalist writers.

    It's hard to get the mind around this "unmanifested and the supra-individual formless states of manifestation". It's so spiritual and timeless, the mind is just helpless in the face of it. Very hard to conceptualize. Somewhere in that non-conceptual and unmanifested state, I just envision us as like children playing, full of joy and fulfilled, so very happy. I envision something living and teeming with life and holy diversity, yet one with God in a way that boggles the human mind which needs to divide and categorize in order to understand.


    I can understand how it might be seen as two creations, but I really think it is only one... It comes from the timeless realm which is without beginning but fell into time, being trapped there as a way to arrest a falling that would have otherwise had no bottom at all to it. I run out of words here, and really have no certainty, just speaking from what I see in my own heart. From the alchemy created here in this dark world comes the philosopher's stone, or a further perfecting created by the union of opposites. From here, it goes back to God with a capacity for love than transcends it's first estate. I have no idea what I just said. :)

    The two accounts... To be honest I would have to go back and look at Jukes on that myself. I just recently came to see the fall in both accounts (it's all one, just looking at it from two perspectives). The first thing that occurred to me concerning the two accounts was what was the end result of each one?

    In the first, it is the perfect man (adam and eve). We know it is perfect because it is said that on the seventh day God rested from all his works. It's all complete right there. One of the things that says to me is that nothing can hinder the work of God, for we find no enemy resisting, just God speaking the word of creation and it is done. This is very comforting and shows us that all is going to be okay in the long run.

    In the second account, the end result is Joseph, a man made perfect through suffering, and also the one who saves all his brethren. Here the fall comes when the serpent deceives Eve and through her, Adam. There proceed many difficulties, with stages, many ruling life forms come and go, each one springing up from the death of the former, until at last Joseph arrives. Here a lot of enemies are encountered and the issue seems to hang by a thread at times, but in keeping with the model of the first account, all is accomplished. Well I have been wordy. I hope some of this makes sense.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2021
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  2. RabbiO

    RabbiO הרב יונה בן זכריה

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    Unless, of course, that's not how the verse should be translated.
     
  3. stranger

    stranger wolfwing, a feral angel

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    I'd be open to your perspective, Rabbi.
     
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  4. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Hi Stranger —
    Here's a story.

    There was a certain point in my life when I was, as it were, without course or compass, just drifting along. Doing my job, raising my kids, domestic stuff. Had never heard of the Sophia Perennis, the Traditionalists, Patristic theology ...

    Whenever I or we went shopping, if there was a bookshop I'd hit it. Check out the 'spirituality' section. Rarely anything caught my eye. You soon learned to be selective about what shops (the independent ones) were the best bet ... anyway, we're in a shopping mall in North London, at the time with wife and twin daughters, clothes shopping for them. Busy day, crowds. Saturday shopping is awful. But there's a WHSmith, so while she and daughters are browsing a shop, I dive in. Saw The Sword of Gnosis on the shelf, picked it out, looked through it, the subtitle 'Metaphysics, Cosmology, Tradition, Symbolism' caught my eye. Interesting ...

    ... but time to go. I put the book back, met family waiting outside the shop, we walked away, and with every step my head began to pound until it was really rather painful. I assume a migraine, and I've never had migraines. It was banging. "I've got to buy a book," I said. Turned round, took one step, headache went. Bought the book, never looked back ... it was Marco Pallis on The Veil of the Temple that brought me back into the Catholic Church.

    That book, as they say, changed my life.

    cover.jpg
     
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  5. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic) Admin

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    It looks like it's been read through many times.
     
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  6. stranger

    stranger wolfwing, a feral angel

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    Thomas, thanks so much for sharing my brother. Great story. These things do happen. The only experience I had that was close to that was when I once entered a bookstore desperately needing something, but not knowing what, and C.S. Lewis's "A Grief Observed" just stood out to me. Same result as with you. Sometimes we just need something in order to keep going. It's really like a miracle (to us). God knows just the right thing to give us. Hope you have a great day.
     
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  7. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    I just looked, and saw 'tatty', 'well-used' versions on Abebooks.co.uk for £500+! :D I'm rich!
     
  8. Base12

    Base12 Well-Known Member

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    I have been studying this topic for many years as it pertains to the Christian Bible.

    Here is a summary...
    • Soul = A Lifeform's Genome
    • Spirit = The Electromagnetic Energy that turns the Genome into Flesh
    • Body = The final product of the above via DNA
    Origen was ahead of his time. Pre-existence of the soul is all over the Bible.

    According to the Bible, we were the Morning Stars that sang together. A 'Morning Star' is a Human before its first conception.

    As far as an 'eternal existence of the Soul', there needs to be clarification. The Lake of Fire is designed to 'destroy' the Souls of those that do not fit the overall Eugenics of what can be 'salvaged'. As to exactly how much of the Soul Genome gets destroyed in the Lake of Fire is up for debate.

    The point is to basically 'strip down' the Genome for another try until the Genetics create a 'salvageable' Human.

    Upon death, the Body is corrupted, leaving the Soul and Spirit. The Soul and Spirit live on as a form of 'Living Information' that transcends physical matter. This Living Information is then cross-checked with the Book of Life to see if there is a match.

    The Book of Life is basically a database of all of the Genomes of those that will be salvaged (i.e., upgraded).

    The so called 'Names' that are written in the Book of Life are not 'John', 'Sue', 'Mary', 'Bob', etc. Again, the names are their individual Genomes. Their Souls.

    The Saved receive a White Stone (Seed of Abraham), with a New Name (new Soul) written on it. In other words, the White Stone is the new Genome that the Saved will be literally Born Again into a new Body with.
     
  9. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    He was just following Greek philosophy.

    I'm not so sure about that. There are, of course, interpretations of the text.

    But generally, Christian theology sees the soul differently to the Greeks ... as not pre-existing in the sense they held it.

    Where's that?

    I tend to read it as a refining, in that fire removes the impurities.
    (Unless, of course, the individual absolutely refuses the offer of salvation, in which case ...)

    Interesting analogy, though.
     
  10. Base12

    Base12 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks @Thomas for the feedback. I will add some more...

    Origen believed that God love Jacob and hated Esau because God knew how they were in their previous life. I agree with Origen on that point.

    'Christian Theology' can say all it wants, as long as it is 'pre-approved' by the Censors. The Bible on the other hand is set in stone and is clear on what it says. All Cancel Culture can do is tell Christians which verses they are allowed and/or not allowed to believe.

    Just by using the phrase 'was, is not, and yet is' as an example, we can already see that pre-existence is True at least for the Beast...

    Revelation 17:8
    "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."


    Because Christians are *told* pre-existence is not Biblical, they are left scratching their heads as to what the above verse means. The phrase "Was, and is not; and shall ascend out" is simply another way of saying Reincarnation. There is a lot of that in Scripture.

    Most Christians know that Stars can represent Angels in the Bible. Stars also represent Children. Thus, a 'Falling Star' is an Angel being cast from Heaven to become Reincarnated as a newborn...

    Revelation 9:1
    "And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit."


    and...

    Mark 13:25
    "And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken."


    Here we see the Sun as the Father, the Moon as the Mother, and the Stars as Children...

    Genesis 37:9
    "And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me."


    Stars are often compared to Male Seed...

    Genesis 22:17
    "That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies"


    Note that a Beast rises from the seashore as John stands on the sand.

    Anyhow, God asks the question...

    Job 38:4
    "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding."


    Christians are *told* that 'no one knows'. It is 'a Mystery'. 'We do not have the answer'... bla bla.

    Yet God revealed the answer here...

    Job 38:7
    "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"


    Job was one of the Morning Stars. We all were at one time.

    Jesus is the Offspring and Morning Star...

    Revelation 22:16
    "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."


    Again, Offspring = Morning Star.

    That is what Universalists teach. They are correct in that the Lake of Fire is for refinement, but they do not understand what said 'refinement' is. They cannot quantify it in Scientific terms.

    The refinement IS the Eugenics I am speaking of. It is literally a 'breeding program'. Yes, I tend to look at things very cold and matter of fact. I call it what it is and I am not afraid to state it.

    According to the Scholars, Tophet, aka... the Lake of Fire, is Vesta. Her image is a flaming phallus impregnating a Womb. In other words, Tophet is the Moment of Conception...

    mhp-0847.png

    The Lake of Fire is nothing more than a Portal back to the Earth Correctional Facility via birth...

    Psalms 139:15
    "My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth."


    Christians all over the world know that the 'Lowest Parts of the Earth' is Hell, yet the Bible clearly teaches that babies come from there.

    Jesus went to the 'Lower Parts of the Earth'...

    Ephesians 4:9
    "Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?"


    Did Jesus go to Hell to 'burn for eternity'? No, Jesus first descended into Mary's Womb to incarnate.

    Child of Hell means just that...

    Matthew 23:15
    "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves."


    Being 'twofold more' the Child of Hell, means the person will be Reincarnated twice.

    Like I said, pre-existence, Reincarnation, is all over the Bible. Christians are simply TOLD not to look, believe, question, etc.

    The so called "theologians" just regurgitate their talking points like they do now. Whatever fits the agenda and their pocketbooks. Nothing new there.
     
  11. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Not so much a previous life as their pre-existence, a doctrine ascribed to him by ancient critics (and modern critics of the RC church) – the Platonic (and Gnostic) belief that all rational beings were once pure intellects in the presence of God, who fell away through koros or satiety. This is neither reincarnation nor transmigration in the sense that it's a one-off event.

    However, scholars generally agree that such teaching were ascribed to Origen by his critics. The Church condemned Origenism, that is the claims attributed to him by his followers, not the man.

    Origenist understanding was critiqued by Augustine for its lack of coherence, and corrected by Maximus, as presented above. Origen rejects Plato’s theory of transmigration, be it human to human or human to beast. Origen bows to the wisdom of the church always (CommJohn 1.11.66; Princ. 1.8.5).

    Straw-manning the other guy doesn't forward your cause.

    And yet I can provide you with another – metaphysical – reading of that text ... but either way, this is referring not a quasi-spiritual being, not human life.

    Actually, we're not.

    Not necessarily. It's talking about ontological existence. When Jesus said, "Before Abraham was made, I am." (John 8:58), He wasn't hinting at a previous existence, He was hinting at way more than that.

    Can you provide examples of just that, because I can't.

    I'm sorry, but that makes no sense at all. It not what the text says at all.

    You clearly don't understand the teaching.

    No. Sorry, no support for that at all.

    Isaiah 14:12 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer ('lucifer' being the Latin of the Hebrew helel, star), son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!" In this instance the prophet is making the analogy of the King of Babylon, who proclaimed himself a god, is alike to a false dawn, in the same way that the brightest star cannot match the sun.

    Again 2 Peter 1:19 "... until the day dawn, and the daystar arise in your hearts" Same term (lucifer in the vulgate), but this time pointing to the Christ.

    It's not a scientific process, it's a spiritual one. It has its correspondences, of course.

    I think its more spiritual, and more subtle.

    Where do we teach that?

    No, He didn't. The 'harrowing of hell' has its place in the whole picture – but Jesus being born of Mary, living, dying, then doubling back to implant Himself in Mary ... that's not even reincarnation/transmigration ... that's illogical.

    Or, much more likely, it means what it says, that the teacher in error, compounds his error in his students.

    And I think you're misreading the text to suit your own ideas.

    Really? (Rhetorical question.)
     
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  12. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    @Base12

    Why would the force that drives and upholds an infinity of universes of infinite galaxies require human souls to reincarnate ad-infinitum upon this planet alone?

    There are lots of other worlds and dimensions and experiences out there amongst infinitude of worlds and states and conditions of existence. Surely 'rebirth' doesn't have to mean repetetive 'reincarnation' back into this dimension of nature of carbon based material bodies subject to the timespace limitations of this physical state?

    Not to deny some sorts of ghosts and other souls may remain bound after physical death to within the 'earth surround' until they can move on from whatever holds them back here. All sorts of possibilities.

    But it doesn't seem to make sense human souls continue to reincarnate again and again back in this physical dimension of nature -- of all the infinite dimensions in the universe in which to experience rebirth

    'My Father's house has many mansions'

    Just my own thoughts ...
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2022 at 5:57 PM
  13. Ella S.

    Ella S. Utilitarian Logician

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    To add to this a bit tangentially, early Gnostic sects did seem to believe in reincarnation, according to accounts of them given by heresiologists and their own texts recovered from the Nag Hammadi library.

    The reason for this is closely connected to their belief that the soul came from the Pleroma; to them, the soul was trapped in the world of matter by the same Demiurgic forces that put them there, which had to be overcome before they could reassemble in the presence of God.

    In this scenario, this belief is closely tied to reincarnation, but to me Origen always seemed to be one of the greatest critics of Gnostic reincarnation as you can tell from his writings on the sects that believed in it.
     
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  14. Ella S.

    Ella S. Utilitarian Logician

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    This planet is the only world that exists. All of the other planets and stars are flaming rocks fixed in our upper atmosphere. Sometimes they fall down and create craters in the form of meteorites.

    [​IMG]
     
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