Evolution is Unscientific

Discussion in 'Science and the Universe' started by SufiPhilosophy, Apr 17, 2021.

  1. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Yes, we could.

    Done above in #180.

    Again, the issue for me is your argument is quite weak, and proves nothing.

    I happen to have less faith in the theory now than when I started, but that's more due to my own researches, and discussion with juantoo3, than your posts ... if you want an opinion, you might do well to be a bit less polemical and pay more attention to process.
     
  2. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Could you give it a go?

    I saw this ... I wondered if there was a correlation between large-scale global events, like an asteroid near-miss (or hit?) Something nearly cataclysmic that might trigger a sudden bout of change ... but it seems the theory suggests that small, isolated groups go through rapid development while the rest carry on as normal, so that would suggest not?

    Is that because ToE assumes 'slow change' rather than 'sudden steps'?

    Do you ave an alt. theory you favour? Have I missed a post?
     
  3. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    Is there any reason why I shouldn't?
    As far as I'm aware, most Muslims believe in Jeremiah being a prophet.
    There have been 10's of 1000's of prophets. The Bible and Qur'an contain the latest ones.

    As we go further back in time, history becomes more obscure .. naturally.
     
  4. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Thank you Muhammad. All good
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2021
  5. SufiPhilosophy

    SufiPhilosophy Evolution by mutation has never been observed

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    I have already explained this Thomas. Please don't ignore what l have explained to you in great detail, in a thesis written on the fly that contains grace, eloquence, honesty and completely rebutts your objection.

    The thesis is here:
    https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/19707/reply?quote=347790
    https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/19707/reply?quote=347795
    https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/19707/reply?quote=347811

    Again, let me put it simply: I clearly wanted to see evidence of evolution by gene mutation via a scientific study, be it in the lab or in the wild.

    - GM is not even gene mutation. GM is intelligent design if anything. It uses genes already found in nature.
    - Moreover, GM is not evolution, evolution is a passive process. I was obviously referring to naturalistic evolution.
    - Moreover it is anachronistic to even think that GM causes dinosaurs to give rise to birds, and it was clearly that, which the Theory of Evolution as we understand it today is about, that l wanted evidenced. Please.
    - Evolution by gene mutation is not a minor part of it as l explained, it is the fulcrum of it.
    - Yet you insist that l have somehow dodged your objection about GM foods.

    I don't want to get personal with you so please, let me go now.

    Let's refer this matter to God because you are making some serious accusations of intellectual dishonesty against me when l have gone to lengths to rebutt you and foster understanding in my 3 recent rebuttals to you.

    If l have been intellectually dishonest in dismissing your objections, may l suffer a painful torment for it in this life, in the grave, and in the hereafter. I swear by my mother, by my Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and by God almighty that l have made an accurate, coherent, and comprehensive rebuttal of your objections which you have just summarily dismissed or dismissed with specious arguments unbecoming of honest debate.

    I have nothing to fear from this oath, l have nothing to hide, l am an honest man, l was born to honest parents.

    Please take a parallel oath and we can leave it there. I am guessing you will just scoff at my making an oath and then detract, detract, evacuate. OK but my oath stands. God be with you sir!
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2021
  6. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Try stick to the science and lose the religious oaths and dogma here in the science forum.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2021
  7. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Do you mean you no longer wish to continue the debate you started? Is that because you cannot actually debate in good faith without the need to insult those who respond in good faith with honest questions/doubts ... whatever?
    Aren't natural genes exactly the genes that are subject to modification/mutation? Whether by laboratory design, or natural mutation?

    Temporarily ignoring the next step -- to actual creation of a new species by the process -- why is deliberate laboratory gene modification of natural genes not equivalent to random natural gene mutation?

    Are you demanding that a laboratory has to observe the process in the wild, rather than artificially initiate a process that could take forever to observe by random natural mutation (in the wild)?

    Honest question. Please try to respond honestly
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2021
  8. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Search, be your own guru.

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    IMHO, all plants, animals, humans have individual chromosomes, and no two will ever have the same unless they are identical twins. That is why no two are the same.
     
  9. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Yes they inherit genes from both parents. But this is natural selection, which nobody seems to deny?

    A gene can be laboratory manipulated to produce fruit less vulnerable to insect attack etc, thus manipulating natural selection towards purposeful goals.

    But can natural selection by gene mutation result in new species splitting off, over billions of years? A billion years is a very long time. Eukaryote life has been around for 2.7 billion years. It's enough time for quite a lot of change to occur?

    Is a couple of human generations of modern genetic science enough time to demonstrate speciation from gene mutation? Is it reasonable to demand it could do so?
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2021
  10. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Science proposes an hypothesis, which gathers evidence in support, which can be falsified, and continues to work with it until something better comes along? It's not a big conspiracy to decive, or a rat race to keep jobs? They're not fools. They're very clever people indeed.
     
  11. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    And I have tried to make clear, I remain unconvinced.

    I know you do, and I have agreed there isn't any. But that alone is not sufficient to invalidate the theory.

    Why you feel the need to offer offence I have no idea. You do realise:
    a) this is a discussion forum, so please observe the code of conduct.
    b) no-one is obliged to agree with you or your opinions. If you cannot accept that disagreement does not constitute a personal attack, or some order of offence, and feel the need to resorting to insult or ad hominems, then perhaps this is not the best environment for you.

    Let me clarify once again:

    I do not disagree with you in principle

    I think your method of presentation however, leaves room for improvement, but then that goes for me too.

    I find the idea of mutation generally – micro changes within a species – to have substantial proof in its support. (Whether lab experiments are a good or bad thing is another matter, and when driven by commercial interest, then I tend to think, on the whole, bad.)

    What I am not so sure about is the conviction of speciation – just when and where one species becomes another, and this is the evidence you've been asking for, and so far none is forthcoming. Yet it is a central tenet of the Theory, and many assume it's a given. I happen to think not, but that doesn't count as a disproof or even a reasonable rebuttal. It's an opinion.

    To my mind, although not bullet proof, it's the best working hypothesis we've got.

    What I cannot do however, is explain away the evidence, nor offer a viable alternative theory.

    So once again, if you have one, let's hear it.
     
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  12. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Let's go right back to scratch:

    Evolution is Unscientific

    This is where I think you went wrong.

    The Theory of Evolution is scientific, it just might not be the full story, or even the right theory, it might well be bad science ... but it is science.

    Like the old Morecambe and Wise sketch, we might be playing all the right notes, but not necessarily in the right order.

     
  13. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    And where the quantum scale with middle-C as the basis for western music is different for Indian music, or Arabic or African music? It is the cultural decision from where to fix the standing point for observation of the world?

    Now I look forward to actually watching your video, lol ...
     
  14. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Lovely. Try this one:

     
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  15. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    21st Century science is basically derived from the quantum of the hydrogen atom. Hugely oversimplified, the fact that quantum theory works in practice underlies everything else.

    Including our internet devices. It works and gets results. Or we could send smoke signals. Human ingenuity is boundless. Until something better comes along we need to keep using it, imo .
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2021
  16. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    It's not that simple..
    The ToE is a sprawling monster. If you embrace it, it will consume you :(
     
  17. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    According to the book God wrote for mankind?
     
  18. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    I can accept the God of abiogenesis, of speciation and natural selection. I can accept the mechanism and the process. God's pretty smart. Look up. It gives me all the more to worship and to wonder
     
  19. SufiPhilosophy

    SufiPhilosophy Evolution by mutation has never been observed

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    It's unscientific as it is unevidenced. I'd be torn to pieces if l published research like that, why does the world have double standards in science. Something aint true just because we have no alternative, sorry.

    There's the stock of fossil evidence, similarities between species, similarities between varities within a species, enabling us to extrapolate graphs of procession. This is the core that God left us to form doubts with. I consider it a mercy because if we had no option but to accept God, then our every little flaw would be a monumental sin.

    As l explained at length, we can draw on varies ToEs from that stock evidence. I showed there were ToEs before the one we all cling to today. There are alternate ToEs even today.

    One thing l want to intimate to you is that they are all likely to disappear up themselves within time as contrary findings mount. That is the nature of the beast. Are they all unscientific then? I don't know, the one l'm formulating will be more scientific than the present one being discussed. My alternative has a cousin theory which l'm happy to mention: notice how mountains and foothills are like a gigantic soundwave, the mountains are the base note, the foothills are harmonics. Nowhere have l seen this more plainly than when l rode through Pennsylvania on a holiday, you actually see a soundwave stretched out in the form of these beautiful heavily forested hills. That's all l will tell of my alt theory.

    As for my gruffness, that's because another moderator verbally abused me from the outset, and removed his abuse, and then gave me a warning when l pointed his various abuses out. Moreover, l felt put out that you let me write such a vast rebuttal which was actually giving you food for thought and upholding your principle of doubt and giving us common ground not just between us, but between ourselves and non-theists. It was an amazing piece of work and you just summarily dismissed it and l suspect didn't even read it and moreover added unpleasant counterpunches.

    I consider it settled now anyway, water off a duck's back. I like to think we may have had some faint camaraderie but probably not but seriously, l'm only here for the science debate.


    As for the overtly abusive moderator (not actually Thomas, he was not overt), l want it to be known that this individual is currently giving out a slew of false statements about current evolutionary theory, he has not understood the basics of it, and whether for or against whatever it is l believe, his statements are - objectively speaking - very confused and best avoided. I swear this is not meant as an ad hominem (unlike his calling me a "Luddite" right at the start of the thread, in a fit of rage when l had been courteously rebutting him, and then deleting the post, yet still demeaning me), but the guy really is clueless about the science of our current ToE and is making false statements such as that natural selection leads to gene mutation. Please read my statements on the matter and then research further, and agree or disagree but please, beware of the highly misleading statements of this other moderator who cannot stop telling lies and who gave me a warning after l pointed out he was openly lying - he cited a Wikipedia article about the Swastika, to show me it was NOT a sun symbol, when the article right at the start states that it IS a sun symbol. There is another moderator and an abusive sidekick who have both given me torrents of abuse on this thread, which have been permitted and anybody can view it. All because l made a few scientific observations.

    When each new form of doubt falls, each new theory falls out of fashion, those heavily invested in doubt fall away screaming into the abyss. I don't get it, there are other theories. You can even make your own. Why spit in my face?

    In response to this there will be a major troll rally after this post. Cave trolls, hill orcs, wobbling goblins, even an ogre. Every bizarre distorted cyber thoughtform will rise for this final apocalypse, led by their zombie moderator skeletal warlords. They will come at me strong, they will come at me good. Rank on rank, they will assemble for one climactic battle. I will read a few lines of it but honestly, my work is done here, l am busy in real life. Enjoy the rest of your summer, all. And troll army: don't forget - fight hard. It's now or never, my trolls, there is everything to lose! Don't let me get away!
     
  20. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    What's that supposed to mean?
    Oh yes .. you don't "believe" the Qur'an, do you.

    The Qur'an and the Bible are not science books.
    Science is mankind's observations of the universe they find themselves in.
    satan is very convincing. When dajal appears, he will propagate falsehood.
    He will oppose religious education, just as the staunch supporters of the ToE.

    You clearly don't worship that which I worship,
    and I don't worship that which you worship.
    You have your way, and I have mine.
     

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