Thoughts on Incarnation

SufiPhilosophy

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Ok thanks for explaining. Apologies for being a bit frayed back there. I hope you see i wasnt trying to win you over - that would be bad manners by me on your own religion's thread. I'll try to be back one day but l'll try to avoid this subforum as it's your space. Peace :)
 
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RJM

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That long? Aint nobody got time for that.
I found time to hear an expert in his subject condense a lifetime of study into 50 concentrated minutes of scholarship.

Ok thanks for explaining. Apologies for being a bit frayed back there. I hope you see i wasnt trying to win you over - that would be bad manners by me on your own religion's thread. I'll try to be back one day but l'll try to avoid this subforum as it's your space. Peace :)
@Thomas
Has a website:
The Veil
https://www.interfaith.org/christianity/the-veil/
Peace
 
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Ahanu

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Hello can l ask why you would think l would enjoy that nearly 50-minute video? :p

It answers your questions.

1. It is link hurling, something l am averse to, it downgrades the quality of a debate if it is made the core of a point being made, rather than a take-or-leave curio.

Okay.

2. That long? Aint nobody got time for that.

Just jump to the 37:00 mark if you want. Quite brief and to the point.

3. Did you understand it? If so, put it in your own words.

1. Read in context with the words preceding the crucifixion ayah, a reader can come to a different interpretation since the emphasis is on the claims of Jesus' opponents.
2. Jesus has two names in the Qur'an. According to Ismaili interpretations, Isa was viewed as Jesus' physical body, whereas al-Masih was viewed as his soul. Because the Qur'an says they killed him not, interpreters - such as al-Razi - said it refers to his soul not being killed while also quoting Qur'an 3.169 and Matthew 10.28. Abu Yaqub al-Sijistani also accepted the death of Christ on the cross. A group of Muslim thinkers called Ikhwan al-Safa' gave it a similar interpretation. These are a few examples.

What modern scholars say Jesus died?

Khalil Andani, an Ismaili, says Jesus died. He also refers to the work of Todd Lawson, a Baha'i that has written the most exhaustive historical analysis of the interpretation of 4.157 to date. It is available for free here.

Why do they say he died?

See the interpretation above as an example.

What does it matter what they say?

Because these sources are often overlooked in debates on this topic.

What is the point in being a scholar of Islam if one contradicts what the Qur'an actually said?

I don't see any contradiction between what these scholars say and what the Qur'an says.

Please, you're assuming l'm unaware of Shi'i and ghulat (extreme shi'i) sect Christology. I'm well aware of it.
These groups are extreme groups. The Assassins that supposedly murdered Christian pilgrims and so provoked the Crusades were Nizari Isma'ilis, a branch of the same group you are glibly presenting to me in , it seems , support of your own cause?

Lumping all Ismailis into an extremist camp is like me lumping all Sunnis into an extremist camp. Why even go there? One could say the same about the crazed sects within Sunni Islam (such as Wahhabism and ISIS).
 

Ahanu

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By the way, Ismailis had a major influence on mainstream Islamic thought in more ways than one according to Seyyed Hossein Nasr. Shall I quote him? :D

That would call for another thread.
 

SufiPhilosophy

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The soul is never killed so those views don't make sense.
Those views directly contradict the Qur'an. You have to inject meanings and inject hard to make it otherwise (as l note by your explanation).
Orthodox Islam is not esotericist. The extreme sects are by nature esotericist. There is a deep divide. Therefore they will be wildly different where it matters. So sure they will say these wildly different things to the main body.

Finally l suspect you don't understand Sunnism and Islamic heresiology if you:
1. Don't appreciate what a Ghulat (extreme) sect is (and you clearly don't)
2. Don't appreciate the irony of lauding the root sect of the Assassin order
3. ISIS-drop

I am done with this topic. I do not have time to watch your video sorry.
 

SufiPhilosophy

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2. Jesus has two names in the Qur'an. According to Ismaili interpretations, Isa was viewed as Jesus' physical body, whereas al-Masih was viewed as his soul. Because the Qur'an says they killed him not, interpreters - such as al-Razi - said it refers to his soul not being killed while also quoting Qur'an 3.169 and Matthew 10.28. Abu Yaqub al-Sijistani also accepted the death of Christ on the cross. A group of Muslim thinkers called Ikhwan al-Safa' gave it a similar interpretation. These are a few examples.

Ok i'll bite - briefly.

Some interpreters - you claim - assert that the Qur'an claims they killed Christ bodily but could never kill his soul! And so we link up to the transmigration of souls hypothesis which l'm guessing is somewhere in the video but anyway it's a well known nudge nudge wink wink pay the fee , gain the hidden knowledge stream of thought in these esoteric sects / cults.

However, this is baseless. To claim al Masih means soul and Jesus means body, is baseless. I could say it means a planet shaped like a kitten's head. Who is right?

Here is my concept of the soul, for what it's worth: the soul is from the Nur of Allah, that is, the light of Allah, that is, the essence of Allah, that is, each soul is a portion of infinity.
This infinite essence of Allah is pure existence. It is defined as existence. It is what we taste when we are in bliss: pure existence.

As pure existence, it is by definition: existing. It is not destroyed. To destroy it would be a logical absurdity, i.e. a contradiction in terms, i.e. a red that is blue that is car whale. It is just incoherent. I'm speaking technically here: based on my reasoning, it is incoherent that the soul is destroyed.

So l bury the interpretation of those guys. I guess there's a reason they were always in the sidelines.
 

Ahanu

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The soul is never killed so those views don't make sense.

Note the Sadducees didn't believe in life after death. Hence they were sad, you see? :) They were among Jesus' opponents. We're concerned with what his opponents believed. If they believed they could send Jesus to hell or annihilate his soul, then it makes sense to me since the Qur'an is denying a claim made by them and not the historical event itself. Even if one doesn't believe in annihilation, hell can be viewed as a form of death for the soul.

Those views directly contradict the Qur'an.

"And do not invoke with Allah another deity. There is no deity except Him. Everything will be destroyed except His Face. His is the judgement, and to Him you will be returned" (Qur'an 28.88).

One can understand hell as a form of destruction and death.
 

Tone Bristow-Stagg

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Apparently we have to find out who is the most learned scholar, as it is only in that way we will find truth.

I wonder why the Disciples of Jesus were not scholars?

The answer may be that man becomes their own worst enemy when Faith is concerned, the more they learn, the more they think their opinions are of God. As such they see those views hold a higher power which in the end then leads to the suppression of other views that are not seen to be as learned views, which causes dissension, then division, which then eventually leads to further suppression of views by the more dominant branches, then on to the killing of people who hold those alternate views and then on to war and more bloodshed all over doctrinal opinions.

When the cycle of faith reaches this level of interaction, only God can change hearts again, the Covenant is renewed.

Regards Tony
 

SufiPhilosophy

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Note the Sadducees didn't believe in life after death. Hence they were sad, you see? :) They were among Jesus' opponents. We're concerned with what his opponents believed. If they believed they could send Jesus to hell or annihilate his soul, then it makes sense to me since the Qur'an is denying a claim made by them and not the historical event itself. Even if one doesn't believe in annihilation, hell can be viewed as a form of death for the soul.

This puts the horse before the cart. The horse is they couldn't kill Christ's soul. The cart as per my argument is they can't destroy any soul. Not that any human can even conceivably destroy any soul. The cart is that no soul will be destroyed by God - period. Because doing so is a contradiction in terms, it is incoherent. It is defined out of possibility.

"And do not invoke with Allah another deity. There is no deity except Him. Everything will be destroyed except His Face. His is the judgement, and to Him you will be returned" (Qur'an 28.88).

One can understand hell as a form of destruction and death.

Everything is passing away except the face of Allah (infinity - the face of Allah = all infinity, the human soul = a portion of that substance).

The Face of Allah is infinity. I am tempted to say it is the same as the soul of Allah. Or maybe the Face is the outer expression, whereas the soul is the inner. Either way, it is infinity.

The human soul is of infinity. That's why it's a-okay for our creator to send us to hell for eternity for doing wrong (or even for doing right) - because he is all there is, really.

The human soul is not passing away as it is of the same thing as the Face of Allah. In fact the verse you cite kind of supports this, by saying, everything is passing away ... yet we will return to Allah. What remains to return to Allah? The soul, which always was from the Nur (Light) of Allah. So l hope you see how it is redundant to put cute codes that "Christ = soul, and they couldn't destroy Christ's soul but by implication they did kill him bodily!" when in fact no souls are destroyed and we're bypassing the obvious blaring prima facie message that they couldn't kill Christ at the time they sought to kill his body by nailing him to a cross (that is a very corporal punishment, buddy). That's the prima facie message. Sorry @ the sectarians!

All knowledge is the Face of Allah too, that's why the spiritual seeker and the scientist are in many ways the same.

So l hope l have given you an idea of the soul being infinite and undying, and how this is not contradicted by the Qur'an, and so the special case for Christ being code for the soul of Jesus hence we have a coded message that they couldn't destroy Christ's soul, is baseless and obviated by the fact that we can't destroy souls anyhow, not just Christs's, but anybody's.

As for Hell: the soul does not die in hell. Even in this life, the soul never dies. The body dies in this life, and in hell, the body dies perpetually, being killed over and over e.g. by having skin burnt off and replenished.


Note that where l am in doubt, l am happy to speculate. But l don't crystallise into intractable viewpoints like the various sects have done. We have a tradition that "difference of opinion is a blessing on this community" (paraphrased). Look how the sects have crystallised on this baseless viewpoint which originally was just speculation but l have now shown how it's not even speculative it's demonstrably false / redundant. Although l'll admit l haven't shown my working out re: how the essence of Allah = pure existence, but l do have a logical derivation for it.

We are encouraged to debate, even obscure things like this. But the sects create intractable viewpoints whereas the viewpoints on obscure topics were always just stimuli for spiritual growth through endless enquiry.
 
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Ahanu

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This puts the horse before the cart. The horse is they couldn't kill Christ's soul. The cart as per my argument is they can't destroy any soul. Not that any human can even conceivably destroy any soul. The cart is that no soul will be destroyed by God - period. Because doing so is a contradiction in terms, it is incoherent. It is defined out of possibility.

I think I understand your argument correctly. Because the soul cannot be destroyed, you argue, the Qur'an cannot possibly say Christ's soul wasn't crucified or killed since it would be redundant and contradictory. But what does the Qur'an say? We see the text correcting the ideas of its followers about the nature of the afterlife for those that have died "in the way of God." That is, say-not-they-are-dead language can be found here:

"And say not of those who are slain in the way of God, 'They are dead.' Nay, they are alive, but you are unaware."
(Qur'an 2.154)

"And deem not those slain in the way of God to be dead. Rather, they are alive with their Lord, provided for . . ."
(Qur'an 3.169)
Some of the People of the Book did the opposite. They said Christ is "dead." We find this report in 4.157. The Qur'an is responding to a belief: ". . . and for their saying, 'We slew the Messiah' . . ." But they are like those that are "unaware" (Qur'an 2.154), and so "it appeared so to them" (4.157). Again, the emphasis is clearly about what some of the People of the Book believed in regards to their saying Christ is dead.
 

Tone Bristow-Stagg

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This puts the horse before the cart. The horse is they couldn't kill Christ's soul. The cart as per my argument is they can't destroy any soul. Not that any human can even conceivably destroy any soul. The cart is that no soul will be destroyed by God - period. Because doing so is a contradiction in terms, it is incoherent. It is defined out of possibility.



Everything is passing away except the face of Allah (infinity - the face of Allah = all infinity, the human soul = a portion of that substance).

The Face of Allah is infinity. I am tempted to say it is the same as the soul of Allah. Or maybe the Face is the outer expression, whereas the soul is the inner. Either way, it is infinity.

The human soul is of infinity. That's why it's a-okay for our creator to send us to hell for eternity for doing wrong (or even for doing right) - because he is all there is, really.

The human soul is not passing away as it is of the same thing as the Face of Allah. In fact the verse you cite kind of supports this, by saying, everything is passing away ... yet we will return to Allah. What remains to return to Allah? The soul, which always was from the Nur (Light) of Allah. So l hope you see how it is redundant to put cute codes that "Christ = soul, and they couldn't destroy Christ's soul but by implication they did kill him bodily!" when in fact no souls are destroyed and we're bypassing the obvious blaring prima facie message that they couldn't kill Christ at the time they sought to kill his body by nailing him to a cross (that is a very corporal punishment, buddy). That's the prima facie message. Sorry @ the sectarians!

All knowledge is the Face of Allah too, that's why the spiritual seeker and the scientist are in many ways the same.

So l hope l have given you an idea of the soul being infinite and undying, and how this is not contradicted by the Qur'an, and so the special case for Christ being code for the soul of Jesus hence we have a coded message that they couldn't destroy Christ's soul, is baseless and obviated by the fact that we can't destroy souls anyhow, not just Christs's, but anybody's.

As for Hell: the soul does not die in hell. Even in this life, the soul never dies. The body dies in this life, and in hell, the body dies perpetually, being killed over and over e.g. by having skin burnt off and replenished.


Note that where l am in doubt, l am happy to speculate. But l don't crystallise into intractable viewpoints like the various sects have done. We have a tradition that "difference of opinion is a blessing on this community" (paraphrased). Look how the sects have crystallised on this baseless viewpoint which originally was just speculation but l have now shown how it's not even speculative it's demonstrably false / redundant. Although l'll admit l haven't shown my working out re: how the essence of Allah = pure existence, but l do have a logical derivation for it.

We are encouraged to debate, even obscure things like this. But the sects create intractable viewpoints whereas the viewpoints on obscure topics were always just stimuli for spiritual growth through endless enquiry.

So that not just saying death is remoteness of our Soul from God and life is nearness of our to God?

Also what is the Face of God, for us? Is that not the Messenger, who are the ones that give us the chance to be born again?

Regards Tony
 

Ahanu

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Everything is passing away except the face of Allah (infinity - the face of Allah = all infinity, the human soul = a portion of that substance).

We could probably do a whole new thread about Qur'an 28.88. It's interesting.

Anyway, I'm kinda bored about the topic of Jesus' crucifixion. This marks my last post in this thread.
 

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"Then one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, perceiving that He had answered them well, asked Him, “Which is the first commandment of all?
Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one!"
Mark 12

Has anyone looked up the definition of Gestalt?

The Almighty is One, Who's domain is apart from time.
More vast than one can realize.

He became flesh in His only begotten Son, Who is called such due to the flesh, which he became. (Daniel 7:14)
Duality is for humans sake.
He Himself confessed such to the Jews, replying to them also, "Ye are gods".
(I prefer angels with respect to Revelation 12:4).
And saying the same to the disciple Peter.
 

Thomas

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He Himself confessed such to the Jews, replying to them also, "Ye are gods".
Ooh, careful here – the Hebrew elohim has a range of meaning, context dependent. It also has an 'ordinary' and an 'intensive' sense, the former can mean rulers, judges, divines, angels, gods, the plural intensive referring to God as we generally understand the term.

In Psalm 82 it means 'judge' – in the psalm "God (elohim) standeth in the congregation of the mighty (el); he judgeth among the gods (elohim)" (v1)
He judges the rulers of the world and finds them unworthy: "How long will you (elohim/rulers/judges) judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked?" (v2)
"I said, “You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you; nevertheless, like men you shall die, and fall like any prince." (v6-7)

Remember this was an age where it was believed rulers ruled by virtue of their relationship with the Divine, indeed by divine fiat. In John 10:34 Jesus actually draws out the distinction.
 

Geo

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Ooh, careful here – the Hebrew elohim has a range of meaning, context dependent. It also has an 'ordinary' and an 'intensive' sense, the former can mean rulers, judges, divines, angels, gods, the plural intensive referring to God as we generally understand the term.

In Psalm 82 it means 'judge' – in the psalm "God (elohim) standeth in the congregation of the mighty (el); he judgeth among the gods (elohim)" (v1)
He judges the rulers of the world and finds them unworthy: "How long will you (elohim/rulers/judges) judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked?" (v2)
"I said, “You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you; nevertheless, like men you shall die, and fall like any prince." (v6-7)

Remember this was an age where it was believed rulers ruled by virtue of their relationship with the Divine, indeed by divine fiat. In John 10:34 Jesus actually draws out the distinction.

Well, I used small g, and with reference to the origin of humanity, and the scriptures I've referred to.

Daniel 12:3, and Revelation 12:4.
Mathew 22:24, and Revelation 22:9.
Regarding also to the use of being "Redeemed". And the reference of Paradise, or Heaven as, "Home".

Cino -
Both "One" and "apart", how does this work? Apart from another one?

The Lord can't do this, Cino? Being Spirit?

If the water were Spirit, if you filled a cup from a larger aquarium, and remove the cup,
it is all Spirit, both in the aquarium and in the cup.
 
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