Off limits discussion?

[wil]

Still not clear on these rules....

Is it up to the person offended to walk away...or just suck it up?

I.may be just as.thick as a Michener novel.

 

[Snoopy]

Is it up to the person offended to walk away...or just suck it up?

Up to the person. Walk away from that thread, that other poster, that forum... OR suck it up and carry on. You've had the speeding ticket, there's no appeal, take it on the chin and then carry on posting...

 

[wil]

Flip side you raised you hand and requested censure. You read your warnings and the Cox and continued...we must be vigilant to police the police (we have already defunded them)

 

[Snoopy]

Flip side you raised you hand and requested censure. You read your warnings and the Cox and continued...we must be vigilant to police the police (we have already defunded them)

Er...I can always out-thick you.... could you rephrase please?

 

[juantoo3]

All the same, if I write on the internet that Mike said that, and Mike did not say that -- it is not the truth, and it will sit there forever and be shared with others who will propagate it. It is incumbent on those who know Mike to defend him by correcting the untruth.

I am totally entitled to say: my religion says X, but I am not entitled to continue to say that your religion says Y -- when I do not really know what your religion or your scripture says, apart from bits I learned from Wikipedia -- and just keep on repeating it after it has continuously been explained to me, to point of exhaustion, that it is an incorrect statement -- from which point it becomes a deliberate purpose to spread disinformation?

Half-truth takes many forms, including selective quote picking out of context, ignoring contrary facts etc. Of course it is often not deliberate. But once it has been pointed out to me and yet I ignore the correction and continue repeating it, then it becomes deliberate.

How is this any different than people around the world? You are pointing to games politicians play around the world, and people side up with the ones they want to hear, and ignore (and even try to silence) those they don't want to hear. These are rhetorical games that have been played since ancient Greeks put a name on this, and I would bet it was going on long before then.

Are you telling me you want to legislate and litigate people being people?

We just went over *Admin* here, clearly lying about me, to dispose of me and my presence here. Who will police the police? Who will protect us from our protectors?

Is lying dirty, sneaky, underhanded, rude and unethical? Sure, but I think that says a great deal more about the liar than about the person being lied about. It then becomes incumbent on the reader to discern what is factually true, and what is not. From what we understand of human nature most people will believe what they want to believe regardless of any facts or evidence that contradicts their beliefs.

 

[juantoo3]

We can do that...but my question lies with tje sensitive topics which for some are lines that shouldn't be crossed, triggers, but for others questions that puzzle them.

Do we have a mine field of pandoras boxes or a policy of open exploration and if you are offended stfu?

Therein is the tightrope.

Finding a way to agree to disagree politely and peacefully is key. Far easier said than done.

The easy way out is to ban discussions that some find offensive...but if you go down that road this place will soon go dead silent, because there will always be someone to find offense in ANY conversation.

The easy way is seldom the correct way.

 

[juantoo3]

Flip side you raised you hand and requested censure. You read your warnings and the Cox and continued...we must be vigilant to police the police (we have already defunded them)

Er...I can always out-thick you.... could you rephrase please?

x2

 

[juantoo3]

If ya'll want to think you have it rough, review some of the old mod threads when it was me and Q and Phyllis. We didn't have the tools to ban anyone, or lock any threads. We had to get Brian's attention to do any of that stuff. If it still exists, look into it, and you have Phyllis to verify - so I'm not making this up. Q and I were expected to police this place without any tools to do so!

The last couple of years Brian would disappear for long stretches -months!- and I would be expected to maintain the peace with no tools! Wanna talk about herding cats??? Your answer is easy, just block and dismiss what is difficult and uncomfortable. By comparison you guys are wimping out.

The next time you want to think of either Q or myself as being heavy handed in our moderation, keep this post in mind, because what you are proposing is MUCH more heavy handed than we were even capable of.

 

[RJM]

It seems it is not possible to have a discussion respectively about virgin birth, resurrection, Gaza, or drawing a picture of Mohamed without infuriating or at the very least making my Christian, Jewish and Muslim friends uncomfortable respectively.

To me it's not the subject but the manner of the discussion. Anything is open to proper, intelligent discussion. But is it discussion, or is my mind closed to anything not supported by the scripture I follow? Am I really asking questions, or are my questions just rhetorical?

Am I debating with an open mind? Am I trying to understand the mysteries of another faith, or am I mocking and belittling them? When I say I don't understand, does that mean I won't understand

Am I open to understanding? Do I need constant reminding of what has already been covered to exhaustion across multiple threads, etc?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Do I need constant reminding of what has already been covered to exhaustion across multiple threads, etc?

No, I don't think that you do..
Do I need reminding about your particular "flavour" of belief that I don't agree with? No, I don't think I do.

I am on a Muslim forum as well [ I haven't posted for a few months ], and there is constant sectarian bickering
about which "sheikh" people follow etc. If a Christian comes on to the forum, they all pounce on him, and I tend to
stick up for them and get hated by everybody.

So there you go, Roger. You complain too much

 

[muhammad_isa]

To me it's not the subject but the manner of the discussion. Anything is open to proper, intelligent discussion..

I see. OK then. Let me change tack from my usual discussions on early Christianity..


Germany officially recognises colonial-era Namibia genocide

I'm not criticising Germany here .. I applaud them in admitting to prior attrocities.

It is interesting to see that many of the Nama peoples in Namibia have become Muslims. I'm not surprised.
Almighty God is with those who are are / have been oppressed.

 

[RJM]

Don't know about Namibia, which always had/has a strong German influence, from being a German colony. My (English) South African mother's uncle was killed fighting against Germany during WW1 in South West Africa, as it was then. The Germans were harsh, but the Belgians in the Congo were even worse.
However:

82% of South Africans identify as Christian

“A 2012 Win-Gallup International Religiosity and Atheism poll indicated that the number of South Africans who consider themselves religious decreased from 83% of the population in 2005 to 64% of the population in 2012. However, an Ipsos Mori Poll of 2017 showed 88% declare that religion was an important part of their lives.

A 2015 study estimated some 6,500 believers from a Muslim background have converted into Christianity and numbers have increased recently.

The Association of Religion Data Archives (relying on World Christian Trends) estimated in 2010 that 82.0% of South Africans identified as Christian, 7.1% identified with indigenous religions, 5.4% identified as agnostic, 2.4% identified as Hindu, 1.7% identified as Muslim, 0.5% identified as Baháʼí, 0.3% each identified as Buddhist and atheist, 0.2% identified as Jewish, and less than 0.1% identified with each other group.

According to the World Values Survey, between 1981 and 2001, South Africa was one of only three societies to see an increase in religious participation, and it was the leader among these, with churchgoing increasing by 13% in that period, from 43% of people surveyed to 57% being churchgoers.…”

The Majority of South Africans are Black People (around 97%)
As of 2019, South Africa's population increased and counted approximately 58.4 million inhabitants in total, of which the majority (roughly 47.4 million) were Black Africans.


Zion Christian Church
The Zion Christian Church (or ZCC) is one of the largest African-initiated churches operating across Southern Africa. The church's headquarters are at Zion City Moria in Limpopo Province (old Northern Transvaal), South Africa.

According to the 1996 South African Census, the church numbered 3.87 million members. By the 2001 South African Census, its membership had increased to 4.97 million members. The current number of ZCC members is most likely between 11 and 15 million, in total, according to figures provided by Neal Collins from The New Age and Alex Matlala from The Citizen ...

Islam in Africa:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Africa
Islam has a large presence in North Africa, the Horn of Africa, Sahel, the Swahili Coast, and much of West Africa, with minority immigrant populations in South Africa.

 

[muhammad_isa]

The Association of Religion Data Archives (relying on World Christian Trends) estimated in 2010 that 82.0% of South Africans identified as Christian, 7.1% identified with indigenous religions, 5.4% identified as agnostic, 2.4% identified as Hindu, 1.7% identified as Muslim, 0.5% identified as Baháʼí, 0.3% each identified as Buddhist and atheist, 0.2% identified as Jewish, and less than 0.1% identified with each other group.

OK..
Well, where @Thomas lives has a Muslim population of over 1 million people..

There were 1,012,823 Muslims reported in the 2011 census in the Greater London area. In the 2011 census Office for National Statistics, the proportion of Muslims in London had risen to 12.4% of the population (21% of England's Muslims). In the boroughs of Newham and Tower Hamlets, the percentages of Muslims were over 30%.
- wiki -

and myself..

In the 2011 Census 21.8% of the Birmingham population identified themselves as Muslim. This is significantly higher than the average for England and Wales of 4.8%.
...
The Muslim community in Birmingham is considered one of the most diverse after London with a wide spectrum of people originally from Africa, Eastern Europe, Southern Europe, Western Asia and other Asian countries. Although the earliest Muslims to arrive in Birmingham and England generally are said to have been from Yemen and the regions of South Asia now known as Bangladesh, it is the Kashmiri community from Mirpur in Pakistan who form the largest group of migrated Muslims. The majority of the Muslims in Birmingham continue to be born abroad as more and more migrants arrive into the city although the number of British-born Muslims and those who convert to the faith are said to be near 50% of the total Muslim population. More recent Muslim settlers hail from Somalia, Kosovo and Algeria and neighbouring nations
- wiki -

Don't you think it's a bit rude to suggest that Muslims talking about their faith is "repetitive, mocking, covered to exhaustion" ?
It might be OK when there is only one or two..
..but don't forget that there are approximately the same amount of Muslims as Christians in the world

 

[RJM]

Don't you think it's a bit rude to suggest that Muslims talking about their faith is "repetitive, mocking, covered to

Muslims talking about/ mocking the Christian faith and scripture with only basic Wikipedia knowledge and phrased in repetitive, downtalking terminology might be. I find most Muslims to come from a higher level -- most that I have encountered show some respect, imo

So anyway ...

You are completely transparent, my friend

 

[RJM]

Anyway, as admin they tell me I'm not permitted to descend to silly level ...

Tries to back off

 

[Cino]

Germany officially recognises colonial-era Namibia genocide.

I'm not criticising Germany here .. I applaud them in admitting to prior attrocities.

It is interesting to see that many of the Nama peoples in Namibia have become Muslims. I'm not surprised.
Almighty God is with those who are are / have been oppressed.

I'm happy about the (belated) recognition of the crime, even if the German government technically didn't recognize it as a crime against humanity, because ... um ... it predated the international laws regarding such crimes. (Whew. That way the German Government doesn't have to worry about alienating the Turkish regime... who are notoriously jumpy about the Genocide of the Armenians). Also: Chancellor Merkel is not running for office again, elections are this year, I don't think she cares any more. Still, some good came from all that unsavory maneuvering, at last, a step in the right direction.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I find most Muslims to come from a higher level -- most that I have encountered..

Mmm .. I'm sure that you don't include Ahmed Deedat amongst those people..

In France sale and distribution of his books has been forbidden since 1994 as they are said to be violently anti-western, antisemitic and inciting to racial hate.
- wiki -

Not so here in Birmingham UK. We still have an IPCI bookstore.

His supporters, among them his son maintain that he was "a promoter of free speech and dialogue," while Abdulkader Tayob of University of Cape Town comments that he was only responding to Christian proselytization in a manner that was "not good or bad – but worth reflecting on."
- wiki -

Personally, I found his style a bit harsh .. a bit confrontational. But that's me .. I'm not South African

 

[muhammad_isa]

If anybody is wondering why my profile says I live in Worcester, and keep mentioning Birmingham UK,
you have to appreciate that everything here is on a much smaller scale than in the US.

Worcester is only 30 miles from B'ham, and so many people form Worcestershire "work & play" there.
B'ham area has a population of around 3 - 4 million, and some districts have a Muslim population of at least 80%.
You wouldn't know that you were in the UK. It is a political time-bomb, as are many Northern cities/towns.

I remember the time when I first came back from Eire, and the Salman Rushdie business was going on.
I became very upset, and grabbed the microphone in Friday prayers at B'ham central mosque
and told everybody to calm down.
They were furious !

Furious with his book .. and furious with me.

 

[RJM]

B'ham area has a population of around 3 - 4 million, and some districts have a Muslim population of at least 80%.
You wouldn't know that you were in the UK. It is a political time-bomb

They are unhappy? What about, mostly?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Guess what .. the Muslims in Birmingham suffer from unemployment and deprivation.

Economic inequality in Birmingham is greater than in any other major English city, exceeded only by Glasgow in the United Kingdom. Levels of unemployment are among the highest in the country, with 10% of the economically active population unemployed (June 2016). In the inner-city wards of Aston and Washwood Heath, the figure is higher than 30%.
- wiki -

Asian and Black youth unemployment is extremely high.
All we need is world events that appear to be oppressing Muslims, and civil war could likely erupt.

In the 1970''s, B'ham was a prosperous city with a high industrial output, especially motor cars.
In the !980's government engineered recession caused a complete collapse in its economy.
It is now dependent on "the service sector" .. whatever that is