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RJM

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Mrs. Thatcher famously said: "Unemployment is a price worth paying" in the 80's.
At the time -- and I don't like Thatcher* -- it was a statement about closing unproductive coal mines, rather than run them at a loss at state expense. The whole debate: people from three different trades to change a light-bulb, garbage rotting in the street caused by labour strikes for three-day week on full pay, etc.
* She went too far, imo
 
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muhammad_isa

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At the time -- and I don't like Thatcher -- it was a statement about closing unproductive coal mines, rather than run them at a loss at state expense. The whole debate

No.

The early 1980s recession was a severe economic recession that affected much of the world between approximately the start of 1980 and early 1983. It is widely considered to have been the most severe recession since World War II. A key event leading to the recession was the 1979 energy crisis..
...
The sharp rise in oil prices pushed the already high rates of inflation in several major advanced countries to new double-digit highs, with countries such as the United States, Canada, West Germany, Italy, the United Kingdom and Japan tightening their monetary policies by increasing interest rates in order to control the inflation.

- wiki -

Mrs. Thatcher increased interest rates to 15% [ base rate ] in 1981, and crippled at least 2 million manufacturing jobs.
 

RJM

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She went too far. I agree.
 

wil

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Sorry .. I don't understand your point.
Would you like your daughter to become a single parent on benefits [ or forced to work for a pittance ] ?
..because I wouldn't !
I know a number of single moms (not on assistance or living on a pittance)

And if my daughter chose to have a kid, I am sure she and her child would get on quite nicely.

She has a nice house and can even drive a car. So nice to be able to live a life not dictated by some arbitrary code. She works daily for victims of domestic violence. Something not only tolerated but encouraged in some society
 

RJM

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But I'm starting to see the pattern: Western = Christian = Nicene = false/bad = the oppressor = me the victim of historical injustice = everything hard/bad in my life is your fault ...

Edit: know the enemy
 
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muhammad_isa

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I know a number of single moms (not on assistance or living on a pittance)

And if my daughter chose to have a kid, I am sure she and her child would get on quite nicely..

I'm afraid it's a fact of modern life in the west. I hear so many people complaining about single mums.
I'm not blaming them, myself.

However, I do not agree with this change away from the norms of what I grew up with.
i.e. straight married couples with social recognition [ the Christian norm ]

It's all apparently very clever and politically correct, but I see it ending in tears.
..well, it already is. Increase in violence and rape etc.
 

muhammad_isa

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But I'm starting to see the pattern: Western = Christian = Nicene = false/bad = the oppressor = me the victim of historical injustice = everything hard/bad in my life is your fault ...

No .. I'm just being straight with everybody. I don't see that as devious or threatening.
My intention is to make peace between people.

I think that some people think that their privileges are more important,
while claiming that THEY are the ones who are making peace.
 

muhammad_isa

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Re the subject of usury, my condemnation of it is universal, and not directed towards any particular
tribe or nation.

It is very hard in today's world NOT to be involved with it, as I think @juantoo3 was pointing out.
It is just that some people deny that it is a sin [ destructive to society and our own souls ],
and actually promote it. :(

I get flack from all sides on this one. I discuss the subject with my brothers in the mosque, for example,
and many people deride me, often claiming that we are all in an "economic war".

I find this attitude deceitful, unhelpful, and think we can only fool ourselves in this way.
Our children and grandchildren have to live in this world too.
What sort of a world are we creating for them? What sort of example are we setting?
 

muhammad_isa

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People often tell me that it is not possible for a nation not to have a usurious banking system,
saying that we all need to borrow money to buy houses for example .. and that it is not reasonable
to expect people to just loan people money for 20 years without being rewarded for it.

This is actually not true. It is possible to buy a house on a rent-buy scheme, that does not involve usury.
Critics claim that it can often be more expensive than a mortgage. Is that our only concern? Our own bank balance?
If there was no usurious system, then market rents [ and house prices ]
would no longer be "pegged" to the cost of a mortgage, anyway !
 

Cino

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I lagrely agree with your views about interest on credit, and I certainly don't want to argue for the virtues of capitalism (I'd be a rather sad figure of a capitalist, being without any capital).

I just want to remark on two things: Firstly, that modern currencies are based on credit. Money is created when credit is granted (and destroyed when it is paid back).

Secondly, that money is a very spiritual thing, in that it does not have any existence, but it is causal. There are representations of money, "idols" in a way, on the coins and banknotes and account balance sheets. But money in itself does not exist.
 

muhammad_isa

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modern currencies are based on credit. Money is created when credit is granted (and destroyed when it is paid back)..

Well, yes.
..otherwise known as fiat money. It has no value in itself. It's value is "set" by the politicians.
..a bit like playing poker really. There is no guarantee that it won't collapse, as you know
only too well :(

..money in itself does not exist.

Oh, I don't know .. it seems to for some people ;)
 
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Cino

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Oh, I don't know .. it seems to for some people ;)

It is real in that it is causal. It makes a big difference to us whether we have it or not.

But it has no existence. You can't point at any substance and say, this is money. Only symbolic representations of money exist.
 

juantoo3

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"Money" was intended to be something of value. At some point in ancient history rulers decided gold was that "something of value." I see connections with Alchemy for that choice, be that as it may.

Silver was added when more money was needed than gold was available.

I'm a bit more familiar with the history in my own country (the US), but I am certain there are global similarities and effects.

During our Civil War (1860-65), as a wartime measure, "promises to pay" were issued, and cash (paper currency) money was created to cover those promises. After the war, the gummint began issuing gold and silver backed currency.

In 1913, Congress under Pres Woodrow Wilson passed two significant finance laws; the establishment of the Federal Reserve Central Bank and the graduated Income Tax.

For a brief 2 year period during WWII, our 5 cent "nickels" were made with silver because nickel was needed for the war effort.

In 1964, our "silver" coinage (10 cent and up) were converted to clad nickel over copper, the silver was removed from circulating coins.

In the early 1970s (I want to say 1973 under Pres Nixon) the US removed the gold standard and stopped pegging our currency to precious metals.

I want to say 1981 we stopped making pennies (1 cent) out of copper, they became copper clad zinc (which are the two poles of a simple battery!). This was done because the value of the copper exceeded the value of the coin.

As of 1980, the last I heard the values mentioned; the scrap / intrinsic value of a 25 cent piece was 7 cents, the scrap / intrinsic value of a 1 dollar bill was 1/10 of 1 cent, the scrap / intrinsic value of a 100 dollar bill was 1/10 of 1 cent.

Now, what passes as cash or currency is electronic dots and dashes, thin air with no scrap / intrinsic value. "Wealth" is only on a ledger sheet, a figment of imagination.

And for the record, in China there is no mortgage market for housing. It is cash on the barrelhead. I know because my wife is Chinese, and her family, even here, saves the money and pays for property outright because it is their tradition, it is what they know to do. And incidentally, as of my visit to China in 2005, cost of living for average workaday joes was considerably less than Stateside - I can't help but think that is in large part because of the housing situation. A nice apartment that might cost 250K Stateside *then* could be had for 30-40K in Beijing. And with our gummint currently on a spending spree with borrowed Chinese money, that discrepancy is only going to get worse - much worse.
 
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muhammad_isa

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@juantoo3

Don't despair .. you never know .. things might improve.
It's all up to us [ the people of a nation ].

Unfortunately, I'm not sure whether things will get better in China.
I have my suspicions, that they are on a "can't beat them join them" sort of program.
I might be wrong..

China's housing prices have been growing nearly twice as fast as national income over the past decade, despite a high vacancy rate and a high rate of return to capital. The bubble arises because high capital returns driven by resource reallocation are not sustainable in the long run. Rational expectations of a strong future demand for alternative stores of value can thus induce currently productive agents to speculate in the housing market.
- wiki -
 

muhammad_isa

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I said:
However, I do not agree with this change away from the norms of what I grew up with.
i.e. straight married couples with social recognition [ the Christian norm ]

Prime Minister Boris Johnson has married his fiancee Carrie Symonds in a secretly-planned wedding at Westminster Cathedral.

_118730326_8f752a76-5b99-42ff-9a0e-f986c069bea7.jpg


Oh .. Good old Boris ;)
I wish them well.
 

juantoo3

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Don't despair .. you never know .. things might improve.
It's all up to us [ the people of a nation ].
I'm not optimistic. We had a President who pointed our nation in that direction, and the Globalists insured he was not re-elected.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure whether things will get better in China.
I have my suspicions, that they are on a "can't beat them join them" sort of program.
I might be wrong...
That has been the modus operandi of China for a LONG time, long before the current Maoist regime. (Look at trademark and patent infringement as only one example)

China's housing prices have been growing nearly twice as fast as national income over the past decade, despite a high vacancy rate and a high rate of return to capital. The bubble arises because high capital returns driven by resource reallocation are not sustainable in the long run. Rational expectations of a strong future demand for alternative stores of value can thus induce currently productive agents to speculate in the housing market.
Considering how artificially low they were for so long, I am not surprised.
 

RabbiO

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During the pandemic our gummint thought it would be a good idea to give unemployed folks "a little extra," which ended up making their unemployment benefits greater than my paycheck, that I have to show up for. What inducement was there to return to work when companies began opening back up?

None, so they sit on the coach, smoke pot and drink beer all day and get paid for it.
If you had ended your comment at the question mark, that would have been a good introductory remark to a legitimate conversation about if and how financial aid acts as a disincentive to employment. Unfortunately, you chose to continue and to characterize and caricature all who have received such aid with what can only be described as mean spirited, gratuitous character assassination.
 

juantoo3

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If you had ended your comment at the question mark, that would have been a good introductory remark to a legitimate conversation about if and how financial aid acts as a disincentive to employment. Unfortunately, you chose to continue and to characterize and caricature all who have received such aid with what can only be described as mean spirited, gratuitous character assassination.
You are correct, on all counts. Consider it sour grapes on my part.
 
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