Muslims are Christian???

dattaswami2

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Interesting...so are you indicating that Muslims see themselves as Christian? (Believing Christ is G!d/Allah?

This counters my understanding of what i often hear. "We are all Muslim, most just don't know it yet."

I thought a main belief of Islam is that they honor Jesus specifically not as Allah, but as a prophet, a Jewish prophet along with the rest...and Muhammad (pbuh) is the last and supercedes the rest (as far as changes to laws and understandings go)

In fact, Christians and Muslims are actually cousins because both are the two branches of same ancestor Abraham. One branch was headed by Ishmael, which became Islam. The other branch headed by Isaac became Christians.
 

Cino

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In fact, Christians and Muslims are actually cousins because both are the two branches of same ancestor Abraham. One branch was headed by Ishmael, which became Islam. The other branch headed by Isaac became Christians.

I think you forgot the Jews.
 

Firedragon

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Interesting...so are you indicating that Muslims see themselves as Christian? (Believing Christ is G!d/Allah?

This counters my understanding of what i often hear. "We are all Muslim, most just don't know it yet."

I thought a main belief of Islam is that they honor Jesus specifically not as Allah, but as a prophet, a Jewish prophet along with the rest...and Muhammad (pbuh) is the last and supercedes the rest (as far as changes to laws and understandings go)

I think you didn't understand that sentence you are quoting. It says Muslims are NOT Christians.
 

Firedragon

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The gospels and the accompanying apocrypha are what we have of Jesus’s life, apart from the rather sparse mentions in the Quran. As far as I know the apocrypha do not wholesale reject chunks of the gospels, but rather attempt to fill in-gaps, but in a way that is accepted by most scholars as mostly suspect.

So of course there will always be debate about the meaning of the gospels, but it is not acceptable simply to discard the parts we don’t agree with – or the entire gospel of John -- as ‘corrupted’ without being able to provide alternative supporting historical texts. IMO

It has to be accepted that the Gospels and the Quran differ significantly and irreconcilably concerning the death on the cross and resurrection, which are core Christian beliefs?

The Gospel of John as an example is not necessarily taken as "entirely corrupted". I have never heard terms like that used by Bible scholars. What they would say is that there is a redaction, textual interpolations, maybe four different authors, and they are all anonymous.

But it's true that the Gospels and the Qur'an differ significantly and irreconcilably in some matters. Yet, I don't know what scholars you are referring to when you say they think the so called apocrypha are "suspect". That's not how scholars refer to them as far as I know.

What you must analyse though is that the Gospels are attempts at writing Jesus's biography and the Qur'an is nobody's biography. They are poles apart. Different genre altogether. That is if you look at them as just natural writings by human authors. If you look at them as divine revelations, they are still very different. Not just in stories but as a whole. They are still different in genre.
 

Firedragon

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In fact, Christians and Muslims are actually cousins because both are the two branches of same ancestor Abraham. One branch was headed by Ishmael, which became Islam. The other branch headed by Isaac became Christians.

That's the Islamic view. You are directly referring to the Islamic tradition and belief, but you missed something quoting the Islamic tradition. The Islamic theology is that Islam did not "become", it was always there, and is not a "thing" to become. It's the Dheen or way that existed since eternity.
 

RJM

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What you must analyse though is that the Gospels are attempts at writing Jesus's biography and the Qur'an is nobody's biography. They are poles apart. Different genre altogether. That is if you look at them as just natural writings by human authors. If you look at them as divine revelations, they are still very different. Not just in stories but as a whole. They are still different in genre.
Yes

The issue is when people try to use the New Testament to support their own theories about Jesus -- that Jesus did not die on the cross, for example. The Gospels say Jesus died on the cross. Nobody has to believe what the NT says, but it cannot be used as evidence to support the exact opposite of what it actually does say -- to support the theory that Jesus did not die on the cross, for example.

There are hundreds of theories about Jesus. However the NT Jesus is the Jesus who died on the cross and was resurrected.

These theories about Jesus require separate evidence because the NT does not supply that evidence, unless by cherry-picking and manipulation of passages out-of-context.

The apocrypha are what they are.
IMO
 

Firedragon

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The issue is when people try to use the New Testament to support their own theories about Jesus -- that Jesus did not die on the cross, for example. The Gospels say Jesus died on the cross. Nobody has to believe what the NT says, but it cannot be used as evidence to support the exact opposite of what it actually does say -- to support the theory that Jesus did not die on the cross, for example.

That's true.

There are hundreds of theories about Jesus. However the NT Jesus is the Jesus who died on the cross and was resurrected.

These theories about Jesus require separate evidence because the NT does not supply that evidence, unless by cherry-picking and manipulation of passages out-of-context.

The apocrypha are what they are.

that's true.

I was only pointing out the way you represented scholarship and biblical studies. Also to point out the genre differences in the books you referred to. It's was nothing about justifying anything based on the New Testament.

Hope you understand.
 
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muhammad_isa

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That's the Islamic view. You are directly referring to the Islamic tradition and belief, but you missed something quoting the Islamic tradition. The Islamic theology is that Islam did not "become", it was always there, and is not a "thing" to become. It's the Dheen or way that existed since eternity.
I think perhaps in terms of tawhid, that is correct.
However, regards scripture and "the law", I wouldn't be so sure.

What about "the law" regarding the Sabbath, for example?
 

Firedragon

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I think perhaps in terms of tawhid, that is correct.
However, regards scripture and "the law", I wouldn't be so sure.

What about "the law" regarding the Sabbath, for example?

What do you mean by sabath? Could you open a new thread about that?
 

muhammad_isa

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What do you mean by sabath?
The sabbath is a day of rest, a mandatory non-work day.
It's mentioned in the Qur'an as being prescribed to Bani Israel..

Also, one could mention "pilgrimage to Macca", and the prescribed number of 5 daily prayers.
The dheen of Islam is the final revelation from Allah SWT.
Hope you understand ;)
 

Firedragon

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The sabbath is a day of rest, a mandatory non-work day.
It's mentioned in the Qur'an as being prescribed to Bani Israel..

Also, one could mention "pilgrimage to Macca", and the prescribed number of 5 daily prayers.
The dheen of Islam is the final revelation from Allah SWT.
Hope you understand ;)

Whats the arabic word used in teh Qur'an for Sabbath? And whats your problem with it? Could you explain? So the sabbath changed. Could you show me from what day to which day according to the Quran?

Thanks.
 

muhammad_isa

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Whats the arabic word used in teh Qur'an for Sabbath? And whats your problem with it? Could you explain? So the sabbath changed. Could you show me from what day to which day according to the Quran?

Thanks.
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I am not referring to any particular day. I am not making any specific claim about it. ;)
..just that we don't know for sure "the law" given to former prophets.
We can be sure of tawhid, without a doubt.
 
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