What/Who Is God?

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by SalixIncendium, Jul 14, 2021.

  1. stranger

    stranger wolfwing, a feral angel

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    This is the Christian perspective, which is where I am from, though I have now grown to such an extent that I embrace all, even the atheistic position. Yes, since he walked through hell, but never became a part of it, he now owns it and is able to transform it into heaven. It was not possible that he could be held by it, and it had overextended it's claims.

    This has already been accomplished in timelessness (eternity) but here in time it is left to play out in myriad ways. One can imagine these "forms" of the spirit of Jesus having to deal with all manner of devil spawn in order to bring it (heaven) to all.

    At that point all issues that have to do with above and below will have been resolved and there will be no more duals. All will truly be one, locked up safely in the embrace of eternal bliss. Who would not desire to be an eternal prisoner of love? Our small experiences of bliss here will be surpassed beyond what we could ever ask or think. The possibility of falling will be washed away forever by the pure ecstasy of divine love, which is now given without measure.

    Nevertheless, here in our present distress, there are many struggles yet to come. :(
     
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  2. Geo

    Geo Well-Known Member

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    Well stated.
     
  3. Leveller

    Leveller Well-Known Member

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    A good question Salix. I am agnostic on the issue of God's existence as a rule. Some days I am half sure he/she is there, others, nah.

    Existing or not, I have never accepted the idea of God the creator. It is only recently that I have considered why I should feel so strongly about this.
    I suspect that the creation myth so often seemed to present God as the guy in the sky saying to himself, "hmmmmm what shall I do today, aha I know." It all seems like a tale of celestial D.I.Y.

    I am sure there are more sophisticated interpretations of 'creation', I just have not come across them yet. Any ideas would be very welcome.
     
  4. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic) Admin

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    Neoplatonism and Qabbalah have interesting models, tackling the tough question of how The One, the Undivided, Unity of God etc. relates to the multiplicity of our world. Did the One God fragment to become the many things? Was there a process of emanation which preserves unity while permitting multiplicity somehow? This is fascinating speculative stuff, to me.

    And then there is what science has been able to demonstrate about the development of the universe, back to very early moments. Fascinating, and practical, stuff.
     
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  5. 'Amir Alzzalam

    'Amir Alzzalam Šayṭānist

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    We (LHP) have no external gods. The only god we come to know is our Greater Self/GodSelf.
     
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  6. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Search, be your own guru.

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    In my kind of (non-dual) 'Advaita' Hinduism, we have a very different scenario - 'there is no creation'. What we perceive universe, beings, non-living entities, is only an illusion that the molecules in our brain create out of the pulsating ocean of forces (maya). That does away with God, soul and all the rest of paraphernalia.
     
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  7. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Search, be your own guru.

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    That is the idea pursued by 'Purusha Sukta' in RigVeda (https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv10090.htm), written around 1000 BCE.

    1. A THOUSAND heads hath Puruṣa, a thousand eyes, a thousand feet.
    On every side pervading earth he fills a space ten fingers wide.
    2 This Puruṣa is all that yet hath been and all that is to be;
    The Lord of Immortality which waxes greater still by food.
    3 So mighty is his greatness; yea, greater than this is Puruṣa.
    All creatures are one-fourth of him, three-fourths eternal life in heaven.

    10 From it were horses born, from it all cattle with two rows of teeth:
    From it were generated kine, from it the goats and sheep were born.
    11 When they divided Puruṣa how many portions did they make?
    What do they call his mouth, his arms? What do they call his thighs and feet?
    12 The Brahman was his mouth, of both his arms was the Rājanya made.
    His thighs became the Vaiśya, from his feet the Śūdra was produced.
    13 The Moon was gendered from his mind, and from his eye the Sun had birth;
    Indra and Agni from his mouth were born, and Vāyu from his breath.
    14 Forth from his navel came mid-air the sky was fashioned from his head
    Earth from his feet, and from his car the regions. Thus they formed the worlds.
     
  8. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic) Admin

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    Yes, now that you mention it, there is a similar myth in some European pagan traditions. The ancient Norse for example had the story about the world being fashioned from the dismembered corpse of a primal giant.
     
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  9. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Search, be your own guru.

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    Well; Celts, Germans, Scandinavians, Greeks, Romans, Balts, Serbs, Turks, Slavs, Central Asians, Indians, Iranians got parts of their mythology from Indo-Europeans. Verse 12 shows the creation of four 'varnas' (social classes) in the Aryan society. :)
     
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  10. Leveller

    Leveller Well-Known Member

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    @Aupmanyav thank you for your response. I have to say that regarding Hinduism I am in unknown territory. Would you please explain what is specifically Hindu about the scenario that you describe?
     
  11. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Search, be your own guru.

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    @Leveller, the first thing one must understand about Hinduism is that it is a 'kaleidoscope'. 'Dharma' (which translates into duties and engaging in righteous action) is common to all. The beliefs, that is where there is a surprising diversity ranging from polytheism to atheism. The freedom to form one's own opinion is Hindu. I do not think any other religion gives this kind of freedom. By being an atheist, I do not stop being a Hindu. I can give my reasons, basically lack of evidence for God, soul, heaven and hell. I am not the first doing it. It has been done for thousands of years. I am not branded as a heretic. I am debated with. Which is OK, since nobody has any evidence for supernatural. I know I will win.

    RigVeda : "The Gods are later than this world's production. Who knows then whence it first came into being?"
    https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv10129.htm (Translation by Ralph Griffith, original around 1000 BCE)
    Samkhya philosophy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samkhya#Arguments_against_Ishvara's_existence (Beginning of CE)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_atheism
     
  12. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic) Admin

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    Minus the polytheism, this is also true for Judaism. @RabbiO keeps pointing out how many opinions exist...
     
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  13. Ella S.

    Ella S. Logoic Logician

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    While it is traditional to refer to the One as God, and you will doubtlessly catch me doing so from time to time, there is a bit of difference.

    The One is neither sentient (having emotion) nor sapient (self-aware.) It is more of a force or a lifestream. It is the "center of existence" or the "root of all being" that we can directly experience in silence.

    @Leveller I also don't believe in God as the Creator. I see God as where we all come from and where we all return to. The unformed, unaware existence from before we were born and dreamless sleep are examples of what that's like. All things that have individuated from God do so out of separation from him through emanation; in the same way that your left hand is separated from your right hand and yet they both belong to the same body, we perceive ourselves to be separate from one another when we all belong to the One.

    This separation is sometimes described in myth as orchestrated by the Demiurge, who is responsible for material creation. I don't take this literally as a Deist would, though. I think, more clearly, the Demiurge is a metaphor for all of the things that turn us away from God and cause us to separate further from him, similar to Satan as the being who tempts one into sin. He deceives us into believing that we are separate from the One, fostering competition between each other and causing suffering through material attachment.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2022
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  14. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Search, be your own guru.

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    What Wikipedia says is that in judaism, the importance is on ethnicity (Jewish Atheism).
     
  15. Leveller

    Leveller Well-Known Member

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    @Aupmanyav thank you again for responding. I do understand your reasons for choosing atheism but I remain puzzled as to what it is that makes you a Hindu? I feel sure that "The freedom to form one's own opinion is Hindu" is not a definition of Hinduism. I have known Pagans and Marxists who would happily agree with your original statement, with I presume the omission of the word "Mara". So is Mara what makes this Hindu?
     
  16. Ella S.

    Ella S. Logoic Logician

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    Isn't Hinduism also an umbrella term for a variety of ethnic religions?
     
  17. Leveller

    Leveller Well-Known Member

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    Thank you @Ella S. There is a lot in this that I can relate to.
     
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  18. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic) Admin

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    Okay, got you. Hinduism has an orthodox, atheist branch, while in Judaism, belief in God is one of Maimonides' 13 principles of the Jewish faith (which is a very authoritative and widely accepted opinion I understand). We really need @RabbiO's input here. Didn't Spinoza attempt something like an Atheist Jewish position? I'm really out of my depth here.
     
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  19. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Search, be your own guru.

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    Just the omission of the word 'mara' dos not make us Hindu (we did not branch out of Buddhism, Buddhism branched out from Hinduism). We do not have 'mara' or Satan. We understand 'tamasic inclinations' (you can translate it as dark or sinful inclinations, 'akusal', 'not smart' in Buddhism). We believe all people may have 'tamasic inclinations' to some extent, greater or lesser, which need to be controlled (that is 'Yama' in Yoga, restraints). What makes me Hindus is tradition, festivals, social rules (dharma) which is not different from what it is in Buddhism (the Noble Eight-fold path, Hinduism gave it to Buddhism, after all Buddha was a Hindu born), respect for diverse views in Hinduism (also for the religions that branched out of us).
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2022
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  20. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Search, be your own guru.

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    Yeah, these religions have merged together to form Hinduism. Not just ethnic, but regional, tribal, etc. Before the arrival of Muslims, invaders and migrants came to India from all directions* and merged into the indigenous society over thousands of years. So ethnically we are very mixed up.

    * Iran, Afghanistan, Central Asia, Tibet, Myanmar. Jews, Christians, Muslims to Arabian Gulf coast of South India.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2022
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