Did Jesus Die On The Cross?

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by RJM Corbet, Oct 20, 2021.

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  1. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    Oh, what???
    It doesn't matter what I say .. it matters what the verses actually MEAN !
    See post #57

    ...
    "nor did they crucify him" could mean that he wasn't killed by that method, imo.
    ..or it could mean that God caused somebody else who was being crucified to appear to be Jesus.
     
  2. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    Cambridege Dictionary

    Crucify :to kill someone by tying or fastening them with nails to a cross and leaving them there to die
    He simply didn't die by that method. That is one interpretation of the verse.
     
  3. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    It could mean that. Do you want to start discussing that possibility?
     
  4. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    But the verse says they did not kill Jesus and also that they did not crucify him?
     
  5. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    IMO we can leave it there?
     
  6. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    If you REALLY want to know more, you need to study classical Arabic.
    I'm quite happy accepting Jesus has not died, and therefore was not resurrected.
    We both agree that Jesus ascended to be with "the Father".

    Yes .. we can leave it there :)
     
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  7. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    This discussion is exactly what interfaith means to me. Identifying our differences as we discover our similarities.

    I got it easy. I don't have an ingrained belief system supported by my years of study.

    @Grandad and m_isa, rjm and Thomas... I honor you all for your beliefs and even more for your discussion as I know this beliefs are something you all hold near and dear to your heart and being.

    We all have a need to stand on firm ground....there was a time (are yesterday? Tomorrow?) Where religious discussions were held with swords and armies....we are no longer on separate continents but all right here at each other's fingertips.

    This thread is obviously on fiya because it is like touching a hot stove...if we can come to ...agree to disagree...to honor each other's beliefs as true to them...and embrace each other as people dispute our differing beliefs.

    I almost want every post and comment to start with...'what I believe', or 'as I see it', 'acording to my interpretation from X book' maybe even I will be able to play!
     
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  8. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Not arguing here, but ...

    No, that's quite unfair.

    Religion is misused in all places and all times, yours no less than mine.
     
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  9. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    Not in my opinion, it isn't.
    @RJM has made it quite clear that he doesn't accept a religious authority.
    He is in total agreement with a secular one.

    Secular society is leading us away from religion .. with its political correctness, and its equations of "equality" bla bla.

    X = Y .. and so, X wants to be Y and Y wants to be X
    HUH??? :mad:
     
  10. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    OK. Each to his own.

    Hmmm. I don't think he has.

    Again, I think you might be mistaken.

    Again, that's an opinion.

    Yes, you've confused me, too :D
     
  11. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Shall we have a Shia or a Sunni religious authority? Jewish? Catholic? Protestant? What denomination? Baha'i? Hindu? What variety? Buddhist? Theravada or Mahayana? Yazidi? Jain? Wicca?

    Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's: secular democracy with freedom of religion. Get on with your own religions practice. Show by example. Let other people be.

    God leads every seeking soul, regardless of religion time and place. All rivers reach the sea. Imo
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2021
  12. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    It is the job of democracy to work things out as the world changes and populations increase, with all the consequences of pandemics and climate change -- and the problems and difficulties of letting people have a say in it.

    These things are being worked out by voices on all sides: men self-deciding they are women and taking part in womens' sports, etc. It's all being tested and tweaked and experimented with. Society will decide in the end, imo

    People in a democracy will not willingly allow a religion they do not follow to dictate their lives. There are problems and responsibilities involved, imo

    But it's really for another thread?
     
  13. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    Ever heard of democracy? :)
    i.e.each country has its own idea due to its population
    ..so why does the EU, for example, insist on imposing its non-religious based law onto its member states?

    It isn't though, is it. Modern government is more about political correctness and ignores religious belief.
    Perhaps that reflects the majority view eg. religion is no longer important.

    I think most westerners see religion as personal. That for me, is divorced from reality.
    Without the rule of law, society will disintegrate.
    Another example would be the compulsory teaching of sexual orientation in schools, whilst removing
    religious education.

    I'm in agreement with LOCAL authority eg. Parish councils
    ..so again .. the EU and others are insisting on centralising law, and abolishing faith.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2021
  14. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    There are democratically decided laws. Religious people may follow their own religious laws within the wider community, as long as they do not contravene the democratic laws of the society.

    The problem comes with religions wanting to impose their laws and dietary practices upon everyone else. It is not acceptable in democratic states.
     
  15. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    Hmm, it seems to me that they won't let a religion they DO profess to follow "dictate their lives" either :rolleyes:

    ..so my original statement stands. Romans never have based their law on scripture.
    The vast majority of Christians tell us that Jesus has replaced the law with one commandment.
    i.e. to love each other

    This means that "Caesar" makes the laws, and not God.

    That is not what Jesus taught .. but hey, most of them do not acknowledge it.
    They follow Paul and his misbelief. His compromise between Jewish society
    and Hellenistic society / belief.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2021
  16. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    OK ... timeout ... this has gone way off topic ...
     
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  17. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Modern government is required to allow freedom of religion, within the democratically decided law of the land. Anyway @muhammad_isa I personally have no interest in going on with this discussion here. Why don't you start another thread?
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2021
  18. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Belated greetings to you, @Grandad.

    Just noticed this ...

    A Catholic, I am also something of a 'Traditionalist' in line with the Sophia Perennis as presented by René Guénon, Frithjof Schuon and latterly Seyyed Hossein Nasr.

    I had the pleasure of seeing the late Dr Martin Lings, Abū Bakr Sirāj ad-Dīn, talk twice in London. He was a Shadhili.

    Frithjof Schuon, who was for a while the most influential Traditionalist in my studies, was initiated into the Shadhili Tariqua, although later started his own, and seems somewhat clouded in scandal.

    I haven't replied to your posts, but I do return to a reread them, and they have given me food for thought ... maybe I'll pick something up later.

    God bless, and hopefully see more contributions down the road ...

    +++

    When my first grandson came along, the question arose as to how we should be addressed. My other half settled on Nonna, and I was to be 'Pops'. As it turned out, said g-son could not at first pronounce his 'p's, so I became Tops. Then one day he called me 'Topsey', and that stuck ...
     
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  19. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Back to the thread:

    Why do some Muslims propose that Jesus was crucified but bought down alive, when the Quran states clearly that they did not kill him nor did they crucify him? It says so in all authorized translations.

    Repeat for emphasis:
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2021
  20. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    @RJM I think you'll find that that is already answered.

    i.e. you think that crucified means he was put on the cross, and whether he died as a result is irrelevant

    Your historical evidence actually is in agreement with the Qur'an, which states that it appeared as if he died on a cross.
    The Qur'an does not give details, HE DID NOT DIE means just that. It does not mean anything else.

    eg. that he was not arrested or sentenced to death, for example
     
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