Did Jesus Exist

Discussion in 'Video' started by RJM Corbet, Nov 11, 2021.

  1. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Ok -- but then straight after making the clay birds fly, the infancy gospel of Thomas has the boy Jesus killing a kid who breaks his toy dam and lets the water run out, by cursing him and making his body wither away, and then causes another child who bumps him to drop dead. He strikes neighbours blind and also has his father running to the school in a panic fearing Jesus has killed one of his teachers for daring to try to teach him.

    How do you line this up with the sinless, virgin born Jesus?

    https://www.interfaith.org/christianity/apocrypha-infancy-gospel-of-thomas-greek-a/
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2021
  2. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    IDK what I find more interesting.

    ML not believing the crucifixion and resurrection described by a few 30-50 years later because it doesn't fit their paradigm..

    Or believing one discounted document 100- 200 years later because it does...

    Or decrying a learned theogical for after a lifetime of study admitting that some things he just doesn't know (agnostic)

    (I'll stay away from their assuredness about the history described 400 years later and return to pondering)
     
  3. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    One of the wisest comments I ever read was on these forums: God meets us where we are.

    I don't remember who said it. I can't believe the infinite creator of all the worlds is so concerned with my individual religion and belief, but with my heart and soul. Surely I have to be open to growth and change. It happens all the time. What I believe today, God meets me there.

    I have difficulty with a religion that seems to need to draw its energy from correcting and condemning others.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2021
  4. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    Don't you get a sense of deja-vu here?
    Didn't the Pharisees struggle with the same thing in the time of Jesus? ;)
     
  5. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    How could she not when we are in her midst, nestled in her bosom...warmed when cold, fed when hungry and forever in her embrace as the only begotten of continually begotten children of.G!d?
     
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  6. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    That's beautiful
     
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  7. Ella S.

    Ella S. Gnostic Christian

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    Feel free to start a different thread, then.
     
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  8. Grandad

    Grandad Member

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    Great to have you stick around after all! :)
     
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  9. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Thx, Us heretics are like stopped watches!
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2021 at 3:46 PM
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  10. RabbiO

    RabbiO הרב יונה בן זכריה

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    No. Apparently you have been misinformed.
     
  11. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    What about this?

    3. Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.
    -Josephus -- The_Antiquities_of_the_Jews Book_XVIII Chapter_3-
     
  12. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    That passage is regarded as corrupted by interpolations, but nevertheless confirming the fact of Jesus's existence, and the fact of his crucifixion under Pilate.

    However the whole affair at the time would have been treated as an internal dispute within Judaism?
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2021
  13. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Josephus on Jesus

    The extant manuscripts of the book Antiquities of the Jews, written by the first-century Jewish historian Flavius Josephus around 93–94 AD, contain two references to Jesus of Nazareth and one reference to John the Baptist.

    The first and most extensive reference to Jesus in the Antiquities, found in Book 18, states that Jesus was the Messiah and a wise teacher who was crucified by Pontius Pilate. It is commonly called the Testimonium Flavianum. Almost all modern scholars reject the authenticity of this passage in its present form, while most scholars nevertheless hold that it contains an authentic nucleus referencing the life and execution of Jesus by Pilate, which was then subject to Christian interpolation or alteration. However, the exact nature and extent of the Christian redaction remains unclear.

    Modern scholarship has largely acknowledged the authenticity of the second reference to Jesus in the Antiquities, found in Book 20, Chapter 9, which mentions "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James." This reference is considered to be more authentic than the Testimonium.

    Almost all modern scholars consider the reference in Book 18, Chapter 5 of the Antiquities to the imprisonment and death of John the Baptist also to be authentic and not a Christian interpolation. A number of differences exist between the statements by Josephus regarding the death of John the Baptist and the New Testament accounts. Scholars generally view these variations as indications that the Josephus passages are not interpolations, since a Christian interpolator would likely have made them correspond to the New Testament accounts, not differ from them. Scholars have provided explanations for their inclusion in Josephus' later works ...

    In the estimation of James Dunn, there is "broad consensus" among scholars regarding what the Testimonium would look like without the interpolations. According to Dunn's reconstruction, the original passage likely read:

    Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man. For he was a doer of startling deeds, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. And he gained a following both among many Jews and many of Greek origin. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

    In this passage, which is based on John P. Meier's reconstruction, Jesus is called a "wise man", but "lawful to call him a man" and "he was the Christ" are removed, as is the reference to the resurrection. According to Bart D. Ehrman, Meier's reconstruction is currently the most accepted among scholars.

    Geza Vermes has performed a detailed analysis of the Testimonium and modified it to remove what he considers the interpolations. In Vermes' reconstruction "there was Jesus, a wise man" is retained, but the reference to "he was the Christ" is changed to "he was called the Christ" and the resurrection reference is omitted. Vermes states that the Testimonium provides Josephus' authentic portrayal of Jesus, depicting him as a wise teacher and miracle worker with an enthusiastic group of followers who remained faithful to him after his crucifixion by Pilate, up to the time of Josephus. Vermes's version reads:

    Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man. For he was a doer of startling deeds, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. And he gained a following both among many Jews and many of Greek origin. He was called the Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2021

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