Civil Liberties my ****

Discussion in 'Politics and Society' started by Thomas, Dec 20, 2021.

  1. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    This is what gets me:

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    This was Parliament Square this Saturday (18.12.2021) when thousands demonstrated against the Vaccine Programme, against the discussion of 'Vaccine Passports', and generally against measures to control the spread of Covid-19, from lockdowns to the idea of wearing face-masks.

    "We're not a "papers please' society," declared MP Marcus Fysh. "This is not Nazi Germany."

    Yet you voted for the Nationality and Borders Bill means seeking to enter the country without papers will be a criminal offence, effectively criminalising anyone coming here seeking asylum.

    Furthermore helping asylum seekers will also be criminalised – including humanitarian assistance, such as providing medical treatment, or a lifeboat crew pulling someone from the Channel, and could face life imprisonment.

    Meanwhile the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill aims at removing the right to protest. A protest deemed too noisy, or causing 'serious disruption' (whatever that means) would be an illegal act. So our protesters above might find themselves criminal.

    Discreet amendments to the bill include 'serious disruption prevention orders' which presumably can be applied beforehand, where a protest can be assumed to be liable to cause 'serious disruption'.

    Police are also to be given new powers to stop and search people without suspicion, while previous laws have been clearly demonstrated to be used disproportionately against ethnic communities.

    Add to this an overhaul of Human Rights Law to counter "wokery and political correctness", and "deter spurious human rights claims", and furthermore will allow a Home Secretary to strip an individual of their citizenship if they are deemed to be against the national interest should be the most chilling evidence of all ...

    And people think wearing a face mask is an assault on their liberties?

    Don' make me laugh
     
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  2. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    ..whatever political opinions you might hold on other issues,
    does not make the opinions of people about so-called "vaccine passports" null and void.

    Are you saying that you are in agreement with injecting people against their will for "the greater good"?
    As it stands, one can insist that a person entering a country has to be vaccinated against some disease.
    Unless a non-traveller is not mentally competent, they have the right to refuse.

    This issue is being "tested" atm in US, where the high court has just made it legal to insist that large businesses must have their employees vaccinated.
    The saga continues..
     
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  3. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Most assuredly.
    That is what greater good and society is all about.

    Or they can live in the leper colony....
     
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  4. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Nope. But I do have an opinion about whether their opinion is reasonable or not.

    I do think the above demo is ill-informed when the real infringement of freedoms goes on apace. If they really believed in freedom, they'd be protesting the bills mentioned, surely?

    You have to balance individual freedoms against social responsibility.

    I know people who think they're OK to drink and drive. I happen to think they're reckless are irresponsible. Some have never been in an accident, so their argument that they're fine to drive seems pretty substantial. I just won't get in a car with them.

    If it were Ebola, would we be having this discussion?

    I'm not advocating forced vaccination. I would like anti-vaxers to wear some marker of such, so I know to keep my distance.
     
  5. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Exactly.

    When it comes to the crunch, say an Ebola outbreak, or a serious strain of Vovid that kills 80% of the infected ... then there would be no choice.

    'Rights' and 'Freedoms' are granted by the society in which we live.

    I'd support a legal case against someone who's HIV positive and knows it, not informing his/her partner(s).

    You have to balance individual freedoms against social responsibility.
     
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  6. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Antivaxxers by definition are covid accomplices.
     
  7. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    You know, forced vaccination has been making me feel uneasy: but for the first time hearing people whom I believed to be reasonable talking about leper colonies and wearing yellow stars on their coats, I will lie down tonight with real fear in my heart.

    I'm wondering if this is a suitable subject for our polite and decent forum anyway?
     
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  8. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    It's a bad analogy. They don't have to drink and they don't have to drive. They have the choice
    It's not ebola. It's nothing like ebola. Covid cannot in the remotest be equated with ebola.
     
  9. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    I will not respond to any more comments on this thread. I question the value of this thread
     
  10. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    It is fear that is making people critical of others, in the first place.
    I wonder what Jesus would make of it all :)
     
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  11. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    No shoes no shirt no service.

    Forced vaccinations?... Naw.

    Limiting "freedoms" when you choose not to participate...happens all the time.
     
  12. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Ok I'll bite: I don't have to go to the restaurant. I can order in. But you're telling me I cannot leave my house unless I take your potentially dangerous injection into my own body? I'm ashamed that so-called democratic people can even discuss such a thing. I'm ashamed ... and afraid
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2021
  13. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Quarentine (to me) is not going in another building.

    Potentially dangerous substance in your body?

    ...checks cupboards to see which KNOWN dangerous substances I will have for s snack.

    While folks scream thalidomide I laugh! How many drugs have been approved? How many recalled? How many people have benefited vs injured? In the US we are nearing a MILLION dead...DEAD. Tens of millions with unknown long term effects.

    Math is hard.
     
  14. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    My CHOICE
    That is people mostly beyond life expectancy, who died not of but with covid after testing positive on admission, against 340 000 000 total US population -- against all the other damage done to people by this disease.

    The rationale has been protecting health services from overload, not preventing deaths at any cost.

    I'm really out of this thread now
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2021
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  15. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    That is the crux of the biscuit right?

    Folks make the choice not to eat with me, get hugs from me, come in my house, or place of business or fly internationally...their choice.
     
  16. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Lol...hell I kick people out of my house for their words! For what they think! If someone vocalizes racism, anti LGTBQIA+, or support for Trump they get to party with the antivaxxers...but not around me or my family.
     
  17. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    That's YOUR house. They didn't have the choice to be born in the same world as you, or live in the same city or breathe the same air. You have no right to imprison them in their own house -- or worse -- that's it goodbye
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2021
  18. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic) Admin

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    Moderator hat.

    Please, Gentlemen. Trivializing the Holocaust on a Forum dedicated to Interfaith Dialogue? What are you both thinking?
     
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  19. Ella S.

    Ella S. Well-Known Member

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    I am all for withholding international travel from those who are unvaccinated and/or refuse to wear a mask. The virus has to be contained, and we can contain it without violence by simply denying them permission to do things they don't need to do for their health or survival.

    I would donate to handing out free masks and vaccines at the airports if necessary, should those interested in a flight decide that their travel is more important than their refusal to seek appropriate medical care.

    I think it is everyone's duty to self-isolate to the best of their abilities, whether they are vaccinated and wear a mask or not, but I can't support the police physically attacking, restraining, and abducting anyone who may need to leave their homes for whatever reason.

    I feel like those who are the most concerned and at-risk for catching the virus are the ones that should be looking to quarantine themselves, not healthy people who may or may not carry the disease; this latter thinking feels like paranoid fear-mongering and it's the easiest way to turn neighbors against each other, in my opinion.
     
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  20. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    I lost my freedoms decades ago.
    I have received govt. letters telling me "this is what the law says you need to live on".
    I have found that welfare payments come at a price.

    Even when I became of pensionable age, I got
    " we will give you a pension if you promise not to work".
    ..and I was born in the UK. My father was in the Royal Navy.
     
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