End Goals of Your Faith?

'Amir Alzzalam

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I am interested in knowing what your religion/faith's End Goal is in regards to your physical demise (Death)?
I am an adherent of the Left Hand Path and my belief lies in the transference of my conscious awareness to my Greater Self/GodSelf and the individual Subjective Reality I am creating. For us, this is the form of Self-Deification spoken about with LHP Adherents.

What are your Beliefs?
 

muhammad_isa

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Hi, I'm a Muslim, and we believe in a life after death. :)

Only G-d knows what exactly happens, but as long as we try to do good, we have hope that it will be good.
 

'Amir Alzzalam

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Hi, I'm a Muslim, and we believe in a life after death. :)

Only G-d knows what exactly happens, but as long as we try to do good, we have hope that it will be good.
Thanks Muhammad_isa, what would you say is the pay-off for 'doing good'? Is there some kind of reward involved?
 

wil

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a figment of your imagination
my conscious awareness to my Greater Self/GodSelf and the individual Subjective Reality I am creating
I have no clue what that means.

I have zero expectations as to what happens after death other than my body decomposing (centuries of evidence to that). But as to soul, life, consciousness... I know there are many who wish for or rather believe in a certain outcome...

Being a gambler I think I could bet against them all and believe the odds of me being correct will be well over 90%.

But if my wishes were to come true I would hope you are all transported thru a wormhole to a universe where your beliefs are correct.
 

'Amir Alzzalam

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I have no clue what that means.

I have zero expectations as to what happens after death other than my body decomposing (centuries of evidence to that). But as to soul, life, consciousness... I know there are many who wish for or rather believe in a certain outcome...

Being a gambler I think I could bet against them all and believe the odds of me being correct will be well over 90%.

But if my wishes were to come true I would hope you are all transported thru a wormhole to a universe where your beliefs are correct.
[Being a gambler I think I could bet against them all and believe the odds of me being correct will be well over 90%.
What gives you that 'belief'?
 

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End Goal... wow that sounds grave.

I wish to be remembered by my loved ones who survive me, I hope they tell a funny story or two about me. In line with my atheist views, I believe in focussing on life before death.

Death is this paradox, I think - as long as I live, I can never experience it, and after my death, it'll be too late to experience anything, least of all death. Almost as if death could not possibly be of concern to us (except, obviously, it is!). Epicurus expressed this thought better, in his "Letter to Menoeceus".
 

'Amir Alzzalam

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End Goal... wow that sounds grave.

I wish to be remembered by my loved ones who survive me, I hope they tell a funny story or two about me. In line with my atheist views, I believe in focussing on life before death.

Death is this paradox, I think - as long as I live, I can never experience it, and after my death, it'll be too late to experience anything, least of all death. Almost as if death could not possibly be of concern to us (except, obviously, it is!). Epicurus expressed this thought better, in his "Letter to Menoeceus".
Would you agree that non-atheists can also focus on Life before Death?
 

Cino

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Would you agree that non-atheists can also focus on Life before Death?

Depends on whether their religion allows it, I guess...

Snark aside: Of course, everyone does. But maybe you have met people whose activity in the here and now seems to be entirely devoted to securing a front seat in the world to come?
 

'Amir Alzzalam

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Depends on whether their religion allows it, I guess...

Snark aside: Of course, everyone does. But maybe you have met people whose activity in the here and now seems to be entirely devoted to securing a front seat in the world to come?
Of course, plenty of people obsess over Death. As an atheist, I'm sure you have contemplated it as well, yes?
Why are you so certain a soul does not exist and that physical death is final?
 

Cino

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Of course, plenty of people obsess over Death. As an atheist, I'm sure you have contemplated it as well, yes?
Why are you so certain a soul does not exist and that physical death is final?
It may sound like hair-splitting, but why say "death" when one really means something else, continued existence in some form? That doesn't sound very dead to me. As you say, I have contemplated Death, and I have come to realize that in almost any given conversation about death, the subject is life, not death, even if the participants say "death" a lot. (Gentle Reader now or in the future, if you are contemplating death, please, please find someone to discuss this important topic with, it can be life-saving! Don't do this all on your own.)

Also, I believe that no-one has ever come back from the dead (I acknowledge that other people hold different beliefs about this). I mean really dead, body dissolved, not Nearly Dead.
 
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Ella S.

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I believe in eternal oblivion. I have no end-goal as far as an afterlife is concerned.

However, there are two responses to this. There is the hylic response and the pneumatic response:

Hylicoi believe that they will cease to exist as an individual. That everything that defines them will be gone.

Pneumaticoi see themselves as merely parts of the One. To them, death is seen more as a return to where we came from, which is the same oblivion you remember before your life.

"You came from nothing and you return to nothing. What have you lost? Nothing!"

The actual fate is the same for both. The only difference is perspective.
 

'Amir Alzzalam

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It may sound like hair-splitting, but why say "death" when one really means something else, continued existence in some form? That doesn't sound very dead to me. As you say, I have contemplated Death, and I have come to realize that in almost any given conversation about death, the subject is life, not death, even if the participants say "death" a lot.

Also, I believe that no-one has ever come back from the dead (I acknowledge that other people hold different beliefs about this). I mean really dead, body dissolved, not Nearly Dead.
Fair enough, I agree when people speak about death they are talking about the continuation of their existence.
In our beliefs, Death is an illusion that arises in the minds of people. This idea exists because people identify themselves with their body. They believe that the body is going to perish, sooner or later, thinking that their consciousness will disappear too.

Consciousness exists outside of the constraints of time and space. It is able to be anywhere: in the human body and outside of it. That fits well with the basic postulates of quantum mechanics, according to which a certain particle can be present anywhere and an event can happen in several, sometimes countless, ways. The human brain is the perfect quantum computer, and the soul, or consciousness, is simply information stored at the quantum level. It can be transferred, following the death of the body; quantum information carried by consciousness merges with our universe and exists infinitely. IMO.
 

'Amir Alzzalam

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I believe in eternal oblivion. I have no end-goal as far as an afterlife is concerned.

However, there are two responses to this. There is the hylic response and the pneumatic response:

Hylicoi believe that they will cease to exist as an individual. That everything that defines them will be gone.

Pneumaticoi see themselves as merely parts of the One. To them, death is seen more as a return to where we came from, which is the same oblivion you remember before your life.

"You came from nothing and you return to nothing. What have you lost? Nothing!"

The actual fate is the same for both. The only difference is perspective.
And the Left Hand Path view? That upon physical demise one's consciousness will not return to the 'Absolute' but rather it is transferred to the newly created universe of the Adherent as God.
 

Ella S.

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Fair enough, I agree when people speak about death they are talking about the continuation of their existence.
In our beliefs, Death is an illusion that arises in the minds of people. This idea exists because people identify themselves with their body. They believe that the body is going to perish, sooner or later, thinking that their consciousness will disappear too. Consciousness exists outside of the constraints of time and space. It is able to be anywhere: in the human body and outside of it. That fits well with the basic postulates of quantum mechanics, according to which a certain particle can be present anywhere and an event can happen in several, sometimes countless, ways. The human brain is the perfect quantum computer, and the soul, or consciousness, is simply information stored at the quantum level. It can be transferred, following the death of the body; quantum information carried by consciousness merges with our universe and exists infinitely. IMO.

Quantum mechanics doesn't say that a particle can be omnipresent or happen in several different ways. Quantum mechanics is just the foundation of things like chemistry and nuclear science. It doesn't provide an outlet for any sort of afterlife.

This is especially true because consciousness, as generated in the brain, is caused by neurons that are way, way bigger than the particles that quantum mechanics deals with. We already know how to turn consciousness off by damaging or running current through certain parts of the brain, because we know precisely which parts are responsible for wakefulness and metacognition.

This isn't to say that we've definitively proven that there's no afterlife. Technically, claims about the afterlife are unfalsifiable. It's just that quantum mechanics doesn't currently support belief in one.
 

Ella S.

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And the Left Hand Path view? That upon physical demise one's consciousness will not return to the 'Absolute' but rather it is transferred to the newly created universe of the Adherent as God.

Hylicoi and Pneumaticoi are sub-sets of Gnostics, and they're more like generalizations of mindsets depending on where one is in their spiritual path and how much gnosis they have accumulated.

The Left-Hand Path doesn't really apply, unless we're talking about something like Anticosmic Satanism, but even in Anticosmic Satanism they believe the individual will be destroyed back into Azerate.

That said, I don't believe in an Absolute or that consciousness can survive physical death.
 

'Amir Alzzalam

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Quantum mechanics doesn't say that a particle can be omnipresent or happen in several different ways. Quantum mechanics is just the foundation of things like chemistry and nuclear science. It doesn't provide an outlet for any sort of afterlife.

This is especially true because consciousness, as generated in the brain, is caused by neurons that are way, way bigger than the particles that quantum mechanics deals with. We already know how to turn consciousness off by damaging or running current through certain parts of the brain, because we know precisely which parts are responsible for wakefulness and metacognition.

This isn't to say that we've definitively proven that there's no afterlife. Technically, claims about the afterlife are unfalsifiable. It's just that quantum mechanics doesn't currently support belief in one.
You are aware of The Double-Slit Experiment, right?

With the growing development of neuroscience, the concept of mind-body dualism has received much interest. On the topic of neuroscience and soul, Dr Preston writes that, ‘The mind appears to arise from some extra-physical force. The concept of the soul is considered as the unexplainable expression of this force. It is thought that research in neuroscience can explain the existence of soul. Although neuroscience can explain mental processes, it is unable to explain precisely how activity in the brain creates the experience of these mental phenomena.

Robert Lanza, a leading scientist in neurogenerative medicine, agrees that life does not end when the body dies. Lanza suggests that complex phenomenon like dreams, imagination and memory indicate a vital life force, which exists independent of the body. He says that research suggests that a part of the mind – the soul – is immortal and exists outside of space and time. Lanza claims that ‘Space and time are not objects or things, but rather tools of our animal understanding. Lanza says that we carry space and time around with us ‘like turtles with shells’ meaning that when the shell comes off (space and time), we still exist’.
 

'Amir Alzzalam

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Hylicoi and Pneumaticoi are sub-sets of Gnostics, and they're more like generalizations of mindsets depending on where one is in their spiritual path and how much gnosis they have accumulated.

The Left-Hand Path doesn't really apply, unless we're talking about something like Anticosmic Satanism, but even in Anticosmic Satanism they believe the individual will be destroyed back into Azerate.

That said, I don't believe in an Absolute or that consciousness can survive physical death.
There is much more to the LHP than the Order of Nine Angles. Are you simply stating that this is within only your Gnostic beliefs?
 

Cino

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They believe that the body is going to perish, sooner or later, thinking that their consciousness will disappear too.
Mine disappears every few hours for a good night's sleep. I've heard claims of people maintaining consciousness through deep sleep, but have never spoken to someone who can do it. Can you?
 

Cino

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You are aware of The Double-Slit Experiment, right?

What is the religious significance of the double-slit experiment? I studied it as a way to demonstrate the non-intuitive characteristics of radiation, but that was in a different, scientific context.
 

'Amir Alzzalam

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Mine disappears every few hours for a good night's sleep. I've heard claims of people maintaining consciousness through deep sleep, but have never spoken to someone who can do it. Can you?
Sleep, sleepwalking, dreaming, delirium, and comas may signal the presence of unconscious processes, these processes are not the unconscious mind itself, but rather symptoms. In other words 'UNconsciousness' is not the same as 'NO consciousness'.

And yes, I had at one time developed my lucid dreaming ability, very difficult, if not impossible.
 
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