End Goals of Your Faith?

muhammad_isa

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How do any of these various philosophies about time make it possible to create time from outside of time? I don't think any of them do as far as I am familiar with them.
Time cannot be "created" as such.

Eternal is a concept that has no need of measure.
'Time' is defined in this physical world as something that passes relative to motion, or the time it takes for some process to occur.

It is well known today, that this physical definition of time is not absolute, but is relative to time & space.
You are making the mistake of doing a simple calculation that means "t=0" is the beginning of existence, but this calculation is a circular conclusion as the definition of time is only assumed, and not an absolute quantity.
 

Ella S.

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Time cannot be "created" as such.

Eternal is a concept that has no need of measure.
'Time' is defined in this physical world as something that passes relative to motion, or the time it takes for some process to occur.

It is well known today, that this physical definition of time is not absolute, but is relative to time & space.
You are making the mistake of doing a simple calculation that means "t=0" is the beginning of existence, but this calculation is a circular conclusion as the definition of time is only assumed, and not an absolute quantity.

So what definition of time are you using?
 

Ella S.

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Using for what?
If something is eternal, it has no beginning or end.
What is there to measure? :)

Sorry, I've re-read the thread. The definition of time you're using here, which you call philosophical time, is the "I am" of God.

I do not understand how my other post is equivocating physical time with philosophical time, given that I do not believe the "I am" of God exists. I was talking about physical time, the kind that's a part of spacetime, which is a part of our universe.
 

RJM

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Sorry, I've re-read the thread. The definition of time you're using here, which you call philosophical time, is the "I am" of God.

I do not understand how my other post is equivocating physical time with philosophical time, given that I do not believe the "I am" of God exists. I was talking about physical time, the kind that's a part of spacetime, which is a part of our universe.
And our ability to conceive of the universe ends at spacetime singularity. All man's scientific instruments and microscopes and telescopes, wonderful as they truly are -- are really just extensions of the natural human senses of sight, hearing and so on. But there is no reason to assume the universe is limted to the part of it that hunan animal material senses are able to perceive or conceive?
 

Ella S.

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And our ability to conceive of the universe ends at spacetime singularity. All man's scientific instruments and microscopes and telescopes, wonderful as they truly are -- are really just extensions of the natural human senses of sight, hearing and so on. But there is no reason to assume the universe is limted to the part of it that animal material senses are able to perceive?

I do not believe that I ever asserted that the universe is limited to the parts that we are able to perceive. In fact, I never said that time began with a spacetime singularity, either.

I do not know if time exists infinitely into the past or not. Whether there is a t=0 or not, there still cannot be a point in time before time. That's a contradiction.
 

RJM

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I do not know if time exists infinitely into the past or not. Whether there is a t=0 or not, there still cannot be a point in time before time. That's a contradiction.
Infinite time is still time; perhaps eternal Spirit is outside of time and space. I believe time/space is what limits and defines the dimension of nature, like the walls of a room -- but the greater dimension of Spirit is like the house that surrounds and contains and permeates the universe to which our natural animal bodies limit us -- our limited room of nature, imo

I believe there may be many, perhaps infinite other different sorts of dimensions -- rooms within 'my Father's house'

do not believe that I ever asserted that the universe is limited to the parts that we are able to perceive
Ok. Sorry I didn't imply you asserted it. I was making an independent observation. If I appear argumentative with you, that is never my intention
 
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muhammad_isa

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I do not believe the "I am" of God exists. I was talking about physical time, the kind that's a part of spacetime, which is a part of our universe.
Right .. you don't believe in eternity.
That is why you talk about the notion of 'time' beginning at some point.
Philosophically, that makes no sense. It is just a theoretical extrapolation of some equation.
 

Ella S.

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Infinite time is still time; perhaps eternal Spirit is outside of time and space. I believe time/space is what limits and defines the dimension of nature, like the walls of a room -- but the greater dimension of Spirit is like the house that surrounds and contains and permeates the universe to which our natural animal bodies limit us -- our limited room of nature, imo

I believe there may be many, perhaps infinite other different sorts of dimensions -- rooms within 'my Father's house'

If time extends into the past infinitely, then there still is no moment "before" time, because there cannot be a "before" time in that instance. Every moment in eternity has a previous moment in time.

Right .. you don't believe in eternity.
That is why you talk about the notion of 'time' beginning at some point.
Philosophically, that makes no sense. It is just a theoretical extrapolation of some equation.

I do not believe that I spoke about the notion of time beginning at some point, except theoretically. Philosophically, it is as much of a valid possibility as time being eternal, regardless of whether it makes sense to you or not.

I suspend my judgment on the question of whether there is a beginning to time or not, since I do not have an answer to that and physics is still figuring that one out. In a sense, you could say that means that I do not believe in eternity, but what I actually meant here was that I do not believe in your model of God.
 

RJM

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time extends into the past infinitely, then there still is no moment "before" time, because there cannot be a "before" time in that instance. Every moment in eternity has a previous moment in time.
Infinite time would still be a dimension where time exists. Eternity of Spitit would be a state 'outside' of, surrounding and permeating and 'weaving' the time/space dimension of nature.

Time and space effectively 'began' 13.8 billion years ago, and are extinguished at a black hole singularity. Human conception can no longer measure or deal with it. Human conception breaks down.

Sure -- the beginning of time could be compared to a point on a sphere -- but that sphere, by it's nature, needs to exist within some greater milleau? The universe cannot be an infinite sphere, by definition of the concept of sphere?

EDIT
@Ella S. I'm not saying you made claims, that I'm trying to rebut. It's just my contribution to the discussion. I'm aware too of Penrose ccc theory, so not ignoring that.
 
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Aupmanyav

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If endless eternal time is possible then, no-time also is possible.
.. and what one would call the 'eternity of spirit' (Brahman) could still exist outside of it.
That is the problem of existence and non-existence.
That is a human concept which will probably be abandoned in time.
"Nothing is unstable" as Nobel Laureate Frank Wilczeka said.
.. and perhaps there is a relationship between the two as RigVeda opined 3000 years ago.
Let us not be frightened by 'Absolute Nothing'. It may just be a phase. :D

"Asymptotic freedom is a feature of quantum chromodynamics (QCD), the quantum field theory of the strong interaction between quarks and gluons, the fundamental constituents of nuclear matter. Quarks interact weakly at high energies, allowing perturbative calculations. At low energies, the interaction becomes strong, leading to the confinement of quarks and gluons within composite hadrons"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asymptotic_freedom
 
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RJM

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Nothing is unstable" as Nobel Laureate Frank Wilczeka said.
It comes back to what definition of nothing is employed. To me nothing has no qualities; it cannot be stable or unstable because it isn't there, lol
 
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RJM

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Emptiness, by it's nature, must be contained. A jug can be empty. There is empty space between the spokes of a wheel. The emptiness exists in time and space. Even if all particles and forces are removed, that emptiness is still a quality of time and space? The emptiness can only exist within the time/space milleau?
 
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muhammad_isa

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I suspend my judgment on the question of whether there is a beginning to time or not, since I do not have an answer to that and physics is still figuring that one out..
Physics cannot "figure it out" :D
It is a philosophical question.

Space is clearly a part of the universe. The fact that we observe time is related to space does not make it a part of the universe in itself.

It is all about our perception as a human being in this universe .. measured time is not absolute, despite what it seems.
 

'Amir Alzzalam

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I don't believe that everything came from nothing in a literal sense. I believe that matter forms to generate consciousness in our brains. When we die, that consciousness is no longer generated. We can compare what it's like to have no consciousness to the state before we gained consciousness, as well as to dreamless sleep.

As for my cosmogony, I don't think it makes sense to say that spacetime came from anything. Causality requires time. How can something cause causality without causality? You can't be "before time" since there are no moments in time that precede time.

That doesn't mean that we came from nothing. It means that we didn't come from anything.
I believe just the opposite, that Consciousness forms to generate Matter. It's a trickle-down concept in that our Soul/Psyche/Self (Isolate Consciousness) exists as a singularity, which places it outside of the objective universe, and upon reflecting on itself a Duality is born, from there the frequencies diminish to the point where they move slow enough to form physical matter.

We physically expire, but our Soul remains. Don't confuse the state of 'unconsciousness' with that of 'no consciousness', they are two different things. A rock has No Consciousness when you are anesthetized you become unconscious. To be conscious of something is to be aware of that something.

Science is 99% sure that we came from the Big Bang, that Evolutionary mechanisms were exploded into position, and we are the biological results of various types of Natural Selection However, in my opinion, Humans/Homosapiens can be guided by their Isolate Consciousness *if they are consciously aware of this) which is why we, as a species, are superior to all other species on our planet. and have survived.
 

badger

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I am interested in knowing what your religion/faith's End Goal is in regards to your physical demise (Death)?
I am an adherent of the Left Hand Path and my belief lies in the transference of my conscious awareness to my Greater Self/GodSelf and the individual Subjective Reality I am creating. For us, this is the form of Self-Deification spoken about with LHP Adherents.
Dust. My end. :)
The same as for any tree, sparrow, anything.
But that's alright. I was dead for countless billions of years before life, and that was alright.
After my end it can be alright again.

What are your Beliefs?
I am a to tiny miniscule part of the whole, the Diety, and every part of me always will be.
For humans to imagine that they have some special future, something more than other lifeform, is strange to me .
 
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