Two types of intentions

wil

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I'm lesbian and not a Christian.

That said, I commonly hear from many Christians homosexuality is a sin

Well pardon me again. And I would like to apologize.for those that put this sin burden on your psyche. What a pain. I also apologize for misinterpretation of what you meant.

I personally would not give folks who wish to express this opinion the time of day. It (to me) is archaic thought subscribed to be homophobes and needs to go the way of the dinosaurs.

The church's oppression of dame sex relationships has no place in today's society....again my opinion.

It was.not long ago that religious schools smacked kids left hands if they tried to write with them. When the left hand oppression was eliminated suddenly our country went from very few to a significant percentage of left handers as those that were born that way came out of the closet....it should be no surprise to anyone to see the same societal change with sexual preference.

That being said...i have many a relative who would espouse the crap that has come to bother you so.
 

Unveiled artist

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No, the post I linked to is about a gay person in a heterosexual marriage who believes gay sex to be sinful as taught in their religion.

That would have been an interesting discussion to be a part of. I think the term is the problem. If biblical translates called it something else I guess there weren't be too much of an issue.
 

Ella S.

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It is. One thing that eats at me is conversion therapies. The Church still has them (https://couragerc.org/). I don't watch movies regarding that because of it.

We have antiabortion rallies here. Also, one adult store here had to hide her merchandise to keep her business. The Church protested even though the store wasn't on their block. But now they seem to treat homosexuality as an temptation. So, more so conversion rather than protests.

Thanks, though. Thankfully I've grown up without being lesbian being a major issue. There were bigger problems than sexual orientation.

I'd express how deeply I loathe conversion "therapy" and how much it sickens me, but I think I'd probably end up violating several rules in the forum's Code of Conduct if I tried. Needless to say, I am very much not a fan.

I don't understand why we can't just leave each other alone. What's that old phrase? Only look into the bowl of your neighbor to make sure that they have enough to eat?
 

HugoZyl

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Try as I might, I just don't understand why so many Christians put more effort in protesting gay marriages than they do, say, volunteering at a soup kitchen or encouraging others to donate to charity. It seems like such a waste of time to me when there's no shortage of larger issues to address.

Dearest Ella S.

I am thankful to the merciful God for the precious opportunity to share something with you. Dear Ella, you sound like someone to is acquainted with spiritual knowledge, so I hope you find it constructive if someone shared with you that ''volunteering at a soup kitchen or encouraging others to donate to charity'' is completely useless from a spiritual growth viewpoint. There is no difference between an average person protesting gay marriage and an average person volunteering at a kitchen, from a spiritual perspective. Let us look at it very carefully... (May this post hopefully be of benefit to you, otherwise kindly ignore it)

There is a saying, 'give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime'. In almost all cases it is a person's destiny that brings him or her into poverty. If a person's destiny is that he should be poor or have certain problems, then only spiritual practice can help burn the negative karma and alleviate his problems. So teaching a person how to do spiritual practice is like teaching him how to fish as opposed to just giving him some fish. It is a far more sustainable form of help and enables him get out of the cycle of birth and death. As a basic step, one can teach others how to chant the Name of God as a form of spiritual practice.

If we just perform social service for mundane things, it will:

  • create merits in our accumulated karmic account which we need to be reborn to settle,
  • keep us in the feeling that Maya is reality,
  • increase the impression of emotionalism in our mind,
  • increase our ego due to thoughts that we are helping another.
Dear Ella, thank you so much for trying to help another, but let us by the mercy of God help spiritually. If there were no suffering people, there would be no spirituality.

Peace & Love
 

Cino

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Let us look at it very carefully... (May this post hopefully be of benefit to you, otherwise kindly ignore it)

@HugoZyl, please respect that Interfaith.Org is not a forum for personal teaching (refer to our code of conduct, as Wil suggested in your intro thread) Tell all about your faith, that's what we come here for, but don't seek converts or students.
 

HugoZyl

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@HugoZyl, please respect that Interfaith.Org is not a forum for personal teaching (refer to our code of conduct, as Wil suggested in your intro thread) Tell all about your faith, that's what we come here for, but don't seek converts or students.

Dear Cino

Peace and love to you. Let it be so. Please forgive me for any offense.
 

Unveiled artist

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Dearest Ella S.

I am thankful to the merciful God for the precious opportunity to share something with you. Dear Ella, you sound like someone to is acquainted with spiritual knowledge, so I hope you find it constructive if someone shared with you that ''volunteering at a soup kitchen or encouraging others to donate to charity'' is completely useless from a spiritual growth viewpoint. There is no difference between an average person protesting gay marriage and an average person volunteering at a kitchen, from a spiritual perspective. Let us look at it very carefully... (May this post hopefully be of benefit to you, otherwise kindly ignore it)

There is a saying, 'give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime'. In almost all cases it is a person's destiny that brings him or her into poverty. If a person's destiny is that he should be poor or have certain problems, then only spiritual practice can help burn the negative karma and alleviate his problems. So teaching a person how to do spiritual practice is like teaching him how to fish as opposed to just giving him some fish. It is a far more sustainable form of help and enables him get out of the cycle of birth and death. As a basic step, one can teach others how to chant the Name of God as a form of spiritual practice.

If we just perform social service for mundane things, it will:

  • create merits in our accumulated karmic account which we need to be reborn to settle,
  • keep us in the feeling that Maya is reality,
  • increase the impression of emotionalism in our mind,
  • increase our ego due to thoughts that we are helping another.
Dear Ella, thank you so much for trying to help another, but let us by the mercy of God help spiritually. If there were no suffering people, there would be no spirituality.

Peace & Love

What faith do you follow? It's kinda like s mix of Christianity, Buddhism, and Hinduism to a broad brushing extent.
 

HugoZyl

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What faith do you follow? It's kinda like a mix of Christianity, Buddhism, and Hinduism to a broad brushing extent.

Dearest Unveiled artist

Thank you so much for inquiring. Let us keep it short as it is off-topic. It is a little difficult for me to reply to you. My Guru taught me to humbly acknowledge that God is One but has many Names, to reverently love God with all my heart, and help others to do the same. I do not know much about 'faith'. My Guru is my faith. My Guru is faithful in all He does. That is my faith.

May all peace and bliss cover you like a shroud
 

Thomas

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So the sex of both are important because it determines whether the christians I speak with see sex as lust or intimacy.
Ah, I get you.

Sadly, that's their assumption, as clearly some heterosexual relationships are all about lust/power and nothing to do with intimacy, whilst some homosexual relationships are all about intimacy and not the sex.

Tragically, it's a tribal thing. Modern society is coming round to the realisation that homosexuality is neither a lifestyle choice nor some deranged perversion. Sadly there are those who persist in seeing it so. And as homosexuals emerge from the shadows, they will draw the ire of those who see them through distorted lenses.

So I see your point, but the point is, I think, that now that homosexuals are coming out of the closet, certain elements in society are reacting badly. Christian fundamentalists being among them.

There's no excuse for it. It's just you're easier to point a finger at.

It's frightening, really. As we are so close to Holocaust Remembrance Day, it's worth noting that homosexuals were also shipped off to the camps. What's frightening is the tendency is always there, and rises to the surface when the conditions are ripe ...

So I can talk about it with you, but please, do not for a moment think I condone it.
 

powessy

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Most christians I come across say the intention of murder from someone who didnt mean to is not punished. However, if another person intended to murder then they would be.

The same logic should apply to homosexuality (in this context same-sex sex) in that if the action is of lust then its a sin but if it is not, it is not a sin.

The intention ideally determines whether X is a sin or not.

If it applies (or does it?) to murder why not same-sex sex in a relationship vs out of lust (homosexuality-in this context)?


Just my two cents worth.

Just some history first on where I am at. I believe that the after life is a five by five matrix one I have been in for the past 8 years. Each timeline is made up of five minds, that you have to figure things out inside of to move forward. I am on the third timeline, third mind over this timeline is the reason I am commenting here.

This timeline is where I believe we all get our feeling of judgment from. The first two timelines or ten minds was just me learning everything about myself and asking questions about everything I seen and was experiencing. This timeline appears to be where treemends start to figure us out at. What is a treemend? "good question". The treemends are minds that should be part of a much larger problem I call worlds of worlds but for some reason never figured themselves out. If you were to look into the face of a treemend you would see eight points of connection that they use to figure you out with. These eight points are aspects of ourselves that must become us in order to become ourselves again.

Many years ago I would call minds into me to figure them out and find time, but on one occasion I experienced a mind that was being held within judgment. A large circle of Arabian men were all looking inward towards this red Minotaur that seemed very badly done in this circle. This person was not a good person, he had to face himself and to face his judgments to become himself again. If the Minotaur would stop to figure himself out and face the aspects of him that did not want to become him then nothing would exist outside the circle and only he would remain. I have seen other judgments also that have created many other interesting creatures.

So in the end of time if you figure yourself out and you find yourself in this timeline, you will face the many aspects of yourself, here you must be willing to understand why this aspect did not become you, and surrender yourself. The things that will cause you the most problems will be shame, guilt, bullheadedness, envy and pride these are the ones you must avoid. God does not care about homosexuality, but he does care that you were yourself and that you love yourself and that you experienced yourself or "yourself is yourself".

I have had many partners and enjoy sex very much and me would become me all day long, but if I was ashamed of myself and my actions then me would not want to become me and I would not become something again unless I can surrender this shame. If shame found time in your life many times then it will not be so easy to convince me to become me. basically if you steal and know it to be wrong but it finds time many times over you will not become yourself until you surrender this part of you as "yourself is not yourself". If you feel good about the things you do then this is "yourself is yourself" you do not need to understand anything else for me will become you.

As for intolerant people who really cares what they think they will have their own problems that they will need to face.

powessy
 

Unveiled artist

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Just my two cents worth.

Just some history first on where I am at. I believe that the after life is a five by five matrix one I have been in for the past 8 years. Each timeline is made up of five minds, that you have to figure things out inside of to move forward. I am on the third timeline, third mind over this timeline is the reason I am commenting here.

This timeline is where I believe we all get our feeling of judgment from. The first two timelines or ten minds was just me learning everything about myself and asking questions about everything I seen and was experiencing. This timeline appears to be where treemends start to figure us out at. What is a treemend? "good question". The treemends are minds that should be part of a much larger problem I call worlds of worlds but for some reason never figured themselves out. If you were to look into the face of a treemend you would see eight points of connection that they use to figure you out with. These eight points are aspects of ourselves that must become us in order to become ourselves again.

Many years ago I would call minds into me to figure them out and find time, but on one occasion I experienced a mind that was being held within judgment. A large circle of Arabian men were all looking inward towards this red Minotaur that seemed very badly done in this circle. This person was not a good person, he had to face himself and to face his judgments to become himself again. If the Minotaur would stop to figure himself out and face the aspects of him that did not want to become him then nothing would exist outside the circle and only he would remain. I have seen other judgments also that have created many other interesting creatures.

So in the end of time if you figure yourself out and you find yourself in this timeline, you will face the many aspects of yourself, here you must be willing to understand why this aspect did not become you, and surrender yourself. The things that will cause you the most problems will be shame, guilt, bullheadedness, envy and pride these are the ones you must avoid. God does not care about homosexuality, but he does care that you were yourself and that you love yourself and that you experienced yourself or "yourself is yourself".

I have had many partners and enjoy sex very much and me would become me all day long, but if I was ashamed of myself and my actions then me would not want to become me and I would not become something again unless I can surrender this shame. If shame found time in your life many times then it will not be so easy to convince me to become me. basically if you steal and know it to be wrong but it finds time many times over you will not become yourself until you surrender this part of you as "yourself is not yourself". If you feel good about the things you do then this is "yourself is yourself" you do not need to understand anything else for me will become you.

As for intolerant people who really cares what they think they will have their own problems that they will need to face.

powessy

You lost me I'm afraid. Why is there a double standard between both examples in the OP?
 

powessy

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I know of quite a few Christians who say that for example murder committed because of mental health illness is excused of gods punishment whereas those murderers who killed with full knowledge and ill intent suffer from their sins.

In this case its the intent that determines how God sees the sinner not the action itself regardless of mindset and/or age.

There are so many nuances to murder and how these are judged, both knowingly and due to mental illness. As for the bible is it not "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.

My previous post was only trying to say that you will judge yourself. If you wish to concern yourself with the thoughts of narrow minded people and this keeps you from being who you are then this will be what god will see as a sin.

According to Wikipedia "homosexuality in the new testament", and to me these are examples of "yourself is not yourself".

" Yale University professor John Boswell (1980) speculated that the text does not condemn "homosexual acts by homosexuals", but rather "homosexual acts committed by heterosexual persons".[13][page needed] Boswell argues that the conceptual modality (natural laws) which would provide the basis for the condemnation of homosexuality did not exist prior to the Enlightenment era.[14] Hays argues that Romans 1:26-27 is part of a general condemnation of humans, in which males and females, have rejected their creational (as in Genesis) distinctions, with homoeroticism being intrinsically wrong.[15]

John J. McNeill (1993) also invokes "heterosexuals" who "abandoned heterosexuality" or "exchanged heterosexuality for homosexuality".[16] Joe Dallas (1996), opposing what he saw as "pro-gay theology" behind such interpretations, contended that the apostle Paul is condemning changing "the natural use into that which is against nature" (Romans 1:26-27), and to suggest that Paul is referring to "heterosexuals indulging in homosexual behavior requires unreasonable mental gymnastics".[17]

Why doesn't the same logic apply to homosexuality (defining this by the bible only)?

I do not see the same logic between murder and homosexuality and, or, the intent, no matter how I look at this. Are you saying that a mentally handicapped person can have homosexual sex without punishment but not a person that is fully aware of there homosexuality? I just do not see the link between murder and homosexuality and the vague use of intent.

The intent of sex between two men or women in a committed relationship is not of lust just as the intent of someone who murders another but have a mental health condition that caused it doesn't harm by purposeful intent.

Here you are trying to define your intent and not all homosexual intentions, people are lustful we have desires and wants these are not bad as long as they do not rule you or change you from who you are.

If one can get off because the intent wasn't purposeful aggression why can't the other get off because the intent isn't lust?

When I met my wife I lusted for her, and chased after her at first, but this lust turned to love and friendship, is this different for a homosexual relationship?

I'm comparing homosexual actions and murder to make a point since it's seen in the same regards according to scripture.

I am not a religious person but I did take some time to read some scripture and I would say I am glad I am not religious, this one thing I can thank the bible for. Murder is mentioned many more times in the bible then homosexuality. Murder is very clear as to how it is understood and how it is perceived but bible entry's about homosexuality are very vague, the translators seem to assume the meanings which are not very clear.

All I am saying is be yourself and who cares what anyone else says, not one of them has ever met god so how can they say what he thinks.

powessy
 

HugoZyl

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Dear powessy; thank you greatly for your fascinating input, and making yourself available for us.

Well myself was not only created for space travel it has had many jobs, and one of them being finding worlds and colonizing them

If 'myself' was created for colonizing other worlds, is it not then wrong to be homosexual as you would then not be able to reproduce so as to start the colony?


This is what my minds teach me and is how they have shown me everything here.

Is it possible that you could give us an example of something your minds have taught you that is not known to humanity but can be verified?

May your progress along the five by five matrix timelines lead to truth and bliss for all
 

Ella S.

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If 'myself' was created for colonizing other worlds, is it not then wrong to be homosexual as you would then not be able to reproduce so as to start the colony?

Granting that you were created by someone for colonizing worlds, so what? Why would that mean that the right thing to do would be to fulfill that purpose?
 
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Ella S.

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Ah, I get you.

Sadly, that's their assumption, as clearly some heterosexual relationships are all about lust/power and nothing to do with intimacy, whilst some homosexual relationships are all about intimacy and not the sex.

Tragically, it's a tribal thing. Modern society is coming round to the realisation that homosexuality is neither a lifestyle choice nor some deranged perversion. Sadly there are those who persist in seeing it so. And as homosexuals emerge from the shadows, they will draw the ire of those who see them through distorted lenses.

So I see your point, but the point is, I think, that now that homosexuals are coming out of the closet, certain elements in society are reacting badly. Christian fundamentalists being among them.

There's no excuse for it. It's just you're easier to point a finger at.

It's frightening, really. As we are so close to Holocaust Remembrance Day, it's worth noting that homosexuals were also shipped off to the camps. What's frightening is the tendency is always there, and rises to the surface when the conditions are ripe ...

So I can talk about it with you, but please, do not for a moment think I condone it.

I have a question for you, specifically. How do you interpret lust? Do you see it as separate from intimacy?

I've seen some people argue that the problem with lust is that it objectifies other people as merely a means to satisfy one's libido and that, in committed and loving relationships, sex is totally okay as a form of intimacy.

I'll share my perspective, of course, and that's that I view all material cravings as harmful to the pursuit of gnosis. This doesn't stop at lust. It includes hunger and exhaustion, which is why I also practice fasting and occasional sleep-deprivation; it's a way to conquer the desires of the flesh so that I can more wholly turn myself towards the One.

In fact, historically, not all Sethians even went as far as practicing celibacy or chastity and they were still seen as being able to attain salvation. It was really more of a recommendation than a hard rule, since it makes focusing on the One so much easier.
 

powessy

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If 'myself' was created for colonizing other worlds, is it not then wrong to be homosexual as you would then not be able to reproduce so as to start the colony?

That is a good question, but has a lengthy explanation. I will try to explain this the best I can but this will require a little history though.

First off let me explain nothing here, this seems to confuse so many people. Lets look at our galaxy the milky way, lets say we can look out and it is something here, observable through science and our ability to see it. Now lets travel to the center of this galaxy and travel down the black hole at it's core. As we move through the black hole we will be ripped apart into trillions of pieces to become part of nothing here. Lets say that if you were not ripped apart then you would move into another universe a much smaller one then the one we are inside of now. Lets also ponder the question is this universe also a galaxy inside of a much larger universe then our own, think about the missing mass think about how we are expanding as this universe/galaxy is ripping itself apart to become nothing there, and something here.

So lets theorize that at some point this universe will slowly become nothing here, being ripped apart inside of itself many times over. As this universe is being ripped apart the energy of it is being ripped apart also moving down into second and first and then zero dimensional time. Once this energy enters into zero dimensional time there is no time left this is the final place for energy until it enters into origin as I refer to it. Origin is the universe ripped apart without time. Now what happens is that origin will become so massive that it will push down into nothing here and explode into a new universe bringing time into origin(the big bang). Here is the interesting thing origin will go off to become a new universe before this universe is nothing here. This leaves a lot of unknowns but it will leave behind yourselves of worlds and of everything that once was part of those worlds, and once these yourselves find time also they will try to figure themselves out but to late there is nothing here for them to become.

Now we can start to explain "myself" myself can only become something in the old universe or is where it should find time. Once time is here "me's can then become something here and will bring their worlds into this old universe to become something here. There worlds all have my selves which will start to search for worlds like their own and will then start to process of colonizing these worlds. Colonizing is more on the part that I am going to teach worlds in this new universe how to become something so we do not need to wait until that universe is gone. So As far as homosexuals this is not a problem as this system is going to set up your after life this world for you to live in when you become nothing here. The whole idea was to do this so we never become nothing here again and again and again and again and many more agains.

There is so much more then just this you have to understand so much more but this should answer your question.

Is it possible that you could give us an example of something your minds have taught you that is not known to humanity but can be verified?

How to verify something about nothing here. That is another good question. So many people do not know how to find time and how time teaches you things. I would say the majority of the world does not understand how they dream nor do they know how minds teach you things. You have to figure yourself out first in order for me to teach you things, I tried a while back to explain this to someone but they insisted that they understood everything fine as they read from their gurus and masters with a full cup.

If you meditate you can try to just close your physical eyes something here and open your eyes inside of nothing here your inner eyes, and once you do that you can then try to open your third eye or your minds eye. With your inner eyes open try to imagine a hand in front of you open and then closed, left hand and then right hand, insure you are imagining them correctly. If this does not happen right away keep trying again and again until you see something, once it does happen then extend your hand out to shake the minds hand in front of you. All you have to do is show intention they can read your thoughts just fine. This process is used to teach your mitochondria and neurons how to become receptors to information from outside of yourself it has to be learned. The thought would be "it has to become something here many times to become something here all the time".

If you can figure this out you will then see all the things that are not known to humanity.

powessy
 
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Thomas

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I have a question for you, specifically. How do you interpret lust? Do you see it as separate from intimacy?
Yes.

I'd say lust is an unbridled desire, whether the object be another person particularly, or sex in general, or a desire for money, fame, power, as in all of the 'seven deadly sins' it's a form of addiction, a pursuit of gratification without limit and ontologically unsatisfying, as the desire arises in the individual and the individual is not a self-sustaining being.

... the problem with lust is that it objectifies other people ...
Yes, but that's a symptom. The prior problem is with the self ... as with alcoholism, for example, other people become collateral damage.

I'll share my perspective, of course, and that's that I view all material cravings as harmful to the pursuit of gnosis.
Yes, if they threaten to destabilise the self. Nevertheless, one hungers, one thirsts ... the distinction is whether the 'material craving' is necessary or not. So we fast and we undergo other ascetic exercises of self-denial, but always mindful that this should not become a thing in itself, otherwise we've fallen into another trap, and self-denial becomes masochism and then we're into psychologically dark places.

There used to be a thing with eastern ascetics who would demonstrate their abilities by pushing pins through themselves, or burying themselves alive, or walking on fire, of undergoing some other feat of endurance ... but to me, that's all this speaks of – endurance, nothing to do with how illumined or enlightened the person is, I fail to see the value.

(OTOH, certain ascetic exercises, such as those pursued by the shugenja in Japan – standing under pounding waterfalls, etc, have a value. That's not showmanship, but self-tempering.)

We have to tread carefully – Stylites, hermits, monastics, anchorites ... the belief in the mortification of the flesh is dubious. Self-discipline, yes, but practices that induce pain or suffering is open to investigation.

This doesn't stop at lust. It includes hunger and exhaustion, which is why I also practice fasting and occasional sleep-deprivation; it's a way to conquer the desires of the flesh so that I can more wholly turn myself towards the One.
agreed. Don't read the above as contra to that practice ...

+++

It's all about the heart.

I rather think the Catholic view of 'sex' is a bit confused. OTOH, the 'two become one flesh' is when the heart is open toward the other without reserve, and is reciprocated, so the two become as one.

But the purpose of that reciprocation is to live in the love of God. Love is giving, not taking, lust is taking, not giving ...

The procreation thing is a bit of a curveball ...
 
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