30 verses of Bible say " Jesus did not die on the Cross".

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by Ijaz Ahmad Ahmadi, Mar 3, 2022.

  1. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    OK, these are big decisions, and Pilate has to work within the framework, as it were, but he does have leeway, else his superior is micromanaging. There's quite an extensive article on him on wiki.

    Unlikely, really, this is far from a scholarly forum! But I usually cite references, unless I'm speaking generally. If you want the references, again the article is quite good.

    And a lot they played up? I'd be interested in what you think they played down.

    I don't dispute it. They say the site covered some 40 acres? My point being, one man turning over tables in a place that can accommodate the numbers you're talking about is not going to make much of an impression.

    In terms of it size compared to the numbers, yes. Jesus didn't start a riot, nor, I think, did he eject every money-changer, etc. The priests got to hear about it because those he assaulted complained, but they also knew that the people generally had complaints about these sharp practices, and Jesus would have been seen to act on popular opinion.

    It was only a small affair. Best let it blow over ...
     
  2. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    I could read that as sharp political footwork on Pilate's part.

    I'm not saying he was antisemitic, and he was in office for ten years, so that speaks for something, but then again, Rome is not known for 'the delicate touch' in managing affairs. Generally Josephus, Philo, etc. have a very low opinion of him, but then again, that's not to say he was a sinner among saints. Look around today at men in high office ...

    He was prefect, and when his boss was replaced, he fell very soon after ... that might well be a case of 'new brooms', etc. But the complaint of his brutality towards the Samaritans seems to have clinched it.
     
  3. badger

    badger Well-Known Member

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    I've been to visit monasteries during my lifetime, and I have often had the impression of a removed presence, a forsaking of the materials of this world, and of a hardened life within contemplation and thought. True........ but these folks have welcomed anybody in to hospitality regardless of creed. I see these ones as having left everything behind, including the trappings and dogmas of any religion.

    And then I've seen others, and heard of others, watched films about others.. quite dreadful.
    Example : The film 'Philomena'
     
  4. badger

    badger Well-Known Member

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    Prof Erhman should come here and write down his messages in bite sized chunks for our scrutiny.
     
  5. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    A straw-man one, really. LOL, not all monks drive Mercedes, although my aunt was a nun, and did want to be a rally driver ... :rolleyes:

    Family story: Aunty Agnes/Sister Gabriel drove the convent Hillman Imp through London, and got lost, went steaming down the Mall, round that big statue on the roundabout at the bottom, and through big open gates, to find herself in front of some huge building – Buckingham Palace.

    Policemen and men in army uniform watching in stark amazement! She did a quick U-turn, and drove out again.

    Palace security was a bit lax in those days ...

    Possibly. Whatever, there seems to have been no great counter-reaction. Again, I think the act was more symbolic.

    I think John had a hand in it. He set the tone, if you will. A Johannine theology.

    Not sure ... he's often more accurate on geography than the Synoptics, he has 'eye witness' asides, and his chronology makes the most sense ... But more importantly, John saw the implication of Christ's doings, John uses the word 'sign' rather than the common 'miracle'... that's why it very quickly became known as the Spiritual Gospel.

    I think Jesus revitalised the Law, showed a heart where the people were confronted with fundamentalist legalisms. He loved the Law because He loved its Source, and tried always to show the Source as a loving father rather than a domestic tyrant.
     
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  6. badger

    badger Well-Known Member

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    So you don't know that much about the laws, I'm thinking.
    Please show me where poor people cannot find food to eat on the Sabbath.
    Please show me where people are banned from eating with publicans.

    Did you dismiss Matthew 5:17-20?
    Which would you have preferred to 'selectively interpret'?

    I do love it when the authors of G-John tell us what Jesus said to the Prefect.

    However, I expect that Jesus did say something like that. 'This world' was a heap of corruption, Jesus denied being a king, he explained his mission, to 'bear witness to the truth'....... Love it.

    Well then! Theose children needed to 'Hear Moses'........ and ALL his laws.
     
  7. badger

    badger Well-Known Member

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    Yep....... agree to all. Pilate was a prefect under a higher authority.

    Any scholar who would not set foot in your forum is either a bigot or an impost, imo.
    Let them all come here and argue with each other ad infinitum. :)

    Oh...wow..... that's a huge thread, all on its own. I can't keep up here, even.

    One man? You think Jesus picketed the Temple Courts all on his own?
    After he and his had reduced the money-changing bazaar and the sacrificial seller's area he picketed the Temple Courts.

    That's just basic evidence, right there.
    Have you read up about Anna's Bazaar? That's what it was called, after the previous Head Priest.


    Mark {11:15} And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves; {11:16} And would not suffer that any man should carry [any] vessel through the temple.

    ....
    just a small affair??
     
  8. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    You are quite wrong. The term 'the religious' in Catholicism refers to those who take religious vows. There's no-one more religious than a monk: they pray their 'divine office' six times a day, for hours, and then there's daily mass. They are the most religious people of all. The monks have always been the very keepers of the prayers and rituals of the church. They read and listen to scripture all day. The Bible is read while they eat. The monks are the shell of the nut and the keepers of the flame -- for any religion, actually

    (responding to your claim that you have never met a Christian who was not a materialist)
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2022
  9. badger

    badger Well-Known Member

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    I don't expect that any Roman leader had much humanity within, not for outsiders, anyway.
    But those quotes report what he did/said........

    I must get up and walk the little hounds...... you get me writing and writing.......... you debate so well, yet with humility and manners, so I'm learning from you in several areas, not just the gospels and surrounding history.
     
  10. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    If it was a "small affair", I doubt whether it would be included in the Gospel.
    It is clear to me, that the Sanhedrin wanted rid of Jesus because he was challenging their authority.
    I do not believe that Jesus claimed to be G-d. He claimed to be the "the Christ" [ Jewish Messiah ],
    and that is what the Sanhedrin didn't like.
    It is highly unlikely that the Jews who believed in Jesus' sincerity would believe a person to be G-d.
    Only Gentiles would think along such lines.
     
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  11. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    I fully agree :)

    Welcome back @Thomas and over to you from here. I've already explained the futility of myself trying to engage with someone able to argue seriously that passages like the parable of Lazarus and the rich man are purely temporal political speeches, lol

    It's la-la-land imo ...
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2022
  12. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    removed
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2022
  13. badger

    badger Well-Known Member

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    This.. ∆∆∆∆
     
  14. badger

    badger Well-Known Member

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    Brilliant! Absolutely brilliant.
    Indeed, I was having fun with the mercs. :D
    Oh....what a wonderful account.
    And yes, they did go steaming down the Mall, because Imps had ally motors which warped and chucked all their cooling out. :)
    And you are a Brit?

    I live in Herne Bay, Kent, which county are you in? What denomination, creed or church are you in? We receive Christians when they visit around here and they are both most loyal to their faith but other than they I don't really know any others.

    I think that The authors of John set most of the foundation for the church and Paul did most of the brickwork, but they didn't know about disciple John's greatest experiences ...= strange.

    I agree that G-JOHN is the spirit gospel, almost every word of our schools weekly service was built from G-JOHN. I loved the last sentences of the High Church Service.

    Please can you give me an example of G-JOHNs geographic accuracy?
    I absolutely do love reading the OT laws, all brilliant for their time.

    As I read them I can laugh out loud as they mirror our bye laws and legislation.
     
  15. Ella S.

    Ella S. Logoic Logician

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    By my mileage, the Rich Man and Lazarus is one of (if not the) most depressing stories in the entire Bible. Yes, I read Job.

    On one hand, you have someone who is eternally punished for finite sins. On the other hand, you have someone who had to suffer a lifetime of traumatic misery and abuse before God did anything for him.

    And then, even if I could accept this passage as promising me personal redemption in death as long as I'm doing my best to be good, regardless of the fact that I don't have the resources to do more for the world, then that also saddens me because I don't believe in an afterlife so the notion seems like wishful thinking to me.

    I mean, saddens might be the wrong word here. I just think the implications of the story are really unfortunate.
     
  16. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    All good. It is a parable with many levels, imo -- the worthlessness of material attachments. But the point is Jesus was clearly speaking about an afterlife, in the role of spiritual teacher?
     
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  17. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    New runover thread created
    The Gospel of John
    https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/20177/

    Some recent posts from this thread have been moved to that new one
    The thread name can be changed

    I hope that is acceptable to everyone?
    This thread was going too far off topic
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2022
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  18. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    @badger
    You only know two Christians, and only slightly?
     
  19. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    It's fine, it's not required. But it seems a flimsy platform from which to launch a crusade against the Christian beliefs and values of a-third of the population of the planet, based upon just your own study of 'their' scriptures?

    I would not pursue this, except that the crusade appears to continue?
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2022
  20. badger

    badger Well-Known Member

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    Slightly? You read somewhere that I know two Christians 'slightly'?
     

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