Jesus and the Crucifixion - Continued from Another Thread.

badger said:
The reason for doing away with the death is because his friends saw him again, very much alive.
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They went on to die for their belief that he had died and was resurrected. Did Jesus lie to them? James and Peter knew Paul. Jesus's own brother and closest follower. They all believed Jesus died (and was resurrected) -- but they believed he had died?
 
RJM said:
It's independent evidence of the crucifixion.
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No it isn't, it's evidence that Christian writers manipulated an account about a troubled person this account amongst others of troubles, etc. The account of the Baptist is much more real and actually it show that Josephus didn't know the whole story about him, so J was never an expert, just a historian doing his best.

@badger at some stage it's necessary to address the issue of Jesus telling his followers he was going to die, and that even his brother James believed he had really died. All the apostles went on to die for their belief, while Jesus skipped off to India or France or Cornwall -- in order to save the reputation of Pontius Pilate?[/QUOTE]

Pick one. You could pick a report from a gospel about this, or would you prefer that I do?
 
RJM said:
They went on to die for their belief that he had died and was resurrected. Did Jesus lie to them? James and Peter knew Paul. They all believed Jesus died (and was resurrected) -- but they believed he had died?
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Would you like to name a disciple who died just because he believed that Jesus was resurrected, God?
 
badger said:
No it isn't, it's evidence that Christian writers manipulated an account about a troubled person this account amongst others of troubles, etc.
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It's generally accepted there are interpolations, but that the main statement is valid. Joesephus is accepted as the main authority on Judea at the time.
badger said:
Pick one. You could pick a report from a gospel about this, or would you prefer that I do?
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Please do
 
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badger said:
Would you like to name a disciple who died just because he believed that Jesus was resurrected, God?
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I can name Jesus's own brother and closest apostle died for their belief at least that Jesus died on the cross
 
@badger
I have to go to work now. May we try to confine the discussion to the death on the cross, and exclude the resurrection, just for now?
 
wil said:
This is where faith and belief come in is it not.

There are those that believe in the gospels.

And then those that question the veracity of partisan texts that were written for the purpose of getting followers which were splintered all on the same page 30 years after the fact and labeled with pseudonyms designed to appear to be written by eyewitnesses...

I think disagreement is to be expected (and the reason we have dozens of religions and thousands of denominations.)
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Yes.
I believe in a lot of the gospel accounts, both small and large in importance. But I have no Christian faith at all.

For example, I believe that the Second name of Judas was either BenSimon or BarSimon, probably BenSimon.
People might scoff at my choice of example but it's just an example. My reasons for believing that example (amongst thousand of others) is that there was absolutely no possible reason for including that info other than just telling an incidental fact.

That doesn't mean that I only believe petty incidental facts, it was an example.
 
RJM said:
I can name Jesus's own brother and closest apostle died for their belief at least that Jesus died on the cross
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Are you saying that you think Jesus's brother was at the crucifixion, or met with him somewhere afterwards? Does this mean that disciple James disappeared from accounts after that last week?
Can you show how Cephas died because he believed in a resurrection? Or did you mean Paul who might have died during Nero's genocide of Christians and certainly never saw Jesus nor showed any interest in his mission, never wrote a word about any of it apart from the last day?
 
RJM said:
@badger
I have to go to work now. May we try to confine the discussion to the death on the cross, and exclude the resurrection, just for now?
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Yes......... my wife is on holiday and I have to take her shopping......early.
I usually write each early morning, now.
 
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badger said:
Are you saying that you think Jesus's brother was at the crucifixion, or met with him somewhere afterwards? Does this mean that disciple James disappeared from accounts after that last week?
Can you show how Cephas died because he believed in a resurrection? Or did you mean Paul who might have died during Nero's genocide of Christians and certainly never saw Jesus nor showed any interest in his mission, never wrote a word about any of it apart from the last day?
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Paul spoke at length to James and Peter. All gave their lives for their belief. After the crucifixion they could have just let it all go. Do you reject that Paul was executed? Joesephus reports the death by stoning of James 'brother of the one who was called the messiah'
 
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badger said:
Yes......... my wife is on holiday and I have to take her shopping......early.
I usually write each early morning, now.
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Cool!
Talk later :)
 
muhammad_isa said:
Many died for their belief. I don't see that they were persecuted for those particular tenets of belief.
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Care to expand?

Jesus's own brother James and his closest followers Peter and Mary Magdalene believe he died on the cross. They were pretty close to what was going on?

Would Jesus lie to Peter and James and Mary by pretending when he saw them face to face, that he was resurrected instead of just informing them he had not died on the cross?
 
RJM said:
Care to expand?

Jesus's own brother James and his closest followers Peter and Mary Magdalene believe he died on the cross. They were pretty close to what was going on?

Would Jesus lie to Peter and James and Mary by pretending when he saw them face to face, that he was resurrected instead of just informing them he had not died on the cross?
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The inclusion of Gentiles posed a problem, as they could not fully observe the Halakha. Saul of Tarsus, commonly known as Paul the Apostle, persecuted the early Jewish Christians, then converted and started his mission among the Gentiles. The main concern of Paul's letters is the inclusion of Gentiles into God's New Covenant, sending the message that faith in Christ is sufficient for salvation. Because of this inclusion of Gentiles, early Christianity changed its character and gradually grew apart from Judaism and Jewish Christianity during the first two centuries of the Christian Era.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Christianity

I'm not saying whether they believed that Jesus died or didn't die.
I'm saying that the reason why they were persecuted was not down to believing Jesus died on a cross.
Early Christianity was Jewish, and Romans persecuted Jews in general .. including the growing Christian community.
After all, they believed Jesus was the Messiah, and would be returning to make them victorious.
 
Ok. But those closest to Jesus believed he died on the cross. There were a lot of people involved in the conspiracy to rescue Jesus alive from the cross.

Would Jesus's own brother and closest followers not get wind? Did Jesus deceive them not just on that point, but by later meeting them face-to-face and lying to them that he had died, and was risen?
 
RJM said:
Would Jesus's own brother and closest followers not get wind? Did Jesus deceive them not just on that point, but by later meeting them face-to-face and lying to them that he had died, and was risen?
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Jesus didn't deceive anybody..
Jesus didn't lie to anybody..

"early Christianity changed its character and gradually grew apart from Judaism and Jewish Christianity during the first two centuries of the Christian Era"

God knows best what happened and why Christianity became what it is.
It evolved from being a belief in Jesus as the Jewish Messiah, to something more.

There are many reasons why it evolved the way it did.
My point is that a "new religion" evolved that revolves around his death.

John the Baptist had his head cut off. That is a great sacrifice .. one doesn't need to be resurrected.
 
muhammad_isa said:
Jesus didn't deceive anybody..
Jesus didn't lie to anybody..
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He said he was going to die. But he reappeared after his crucifixion and told or allowed his brother and closest followers to believe he was resurrected from the tomb? Or did he not?
 
They all believed him. Peter and James told Paul the same thing.
 
muhammad_isa said:
early Christianity changed its character and gradually grew apart from Judaism and Jewish Christianity during the first two centuries of the Christian Era"
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It happened more quickly than that. Paul was writing before the gospels, having met James and Peter a few years before, and Christians were regarded as distinct fr Jews during Nero's reign around 60 AD. Tacitus attests to this
muhammad_isa said:
one doesn't need to be resurrected.
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Christ thought differently about it, perhaps? What makes you right and him wrong?
 
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