Jesus and the Crucifixion - Continued from Another Thread.

Discussion in 'History and Mythology' started by Ella S., Apr 8, 2022.

  1. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2016
    Messages:
    7,903
    Likes Received:
    1,832
    Fair enough. But you accept Jesus's ascension into heaven? So it's down to belief? Jesus appeared to his closest followers and told them he had not really died. Somehow Peter and James got it mixed up, and told Paul that Jesus died and was resurrected

    Or Paul made it all up?
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2022
  2. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2016
    Messages:
    7,903
    Likes Received:
    1,832
    Paul invented it. Lay it all on Paul. It's the only game left in town, lol

    That's where the buck stops. It can't go anywhere from there ...

    EDIT
    Sorry @muhammad_isa
    I genuinely mean no rudeness or offence
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2022
  3. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2019
    Messages:
    2,774
    Likes Received:
    587
    It is very clear that many people believed that he died and was resurrected.

    I doubt whether all of the disciples believed that.
    What particular scrolls by which authors claim that the disciples believed that?

    However, it is quite possible that some of the disciples started to believe that over time.
    Jesus was not there to contradict it.
     
  4. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2016
    Messages:
    7,903
    Likes Received:
    1,832
    Paul says he spent 15 days with James and Peter. Paul writes about the resurrection front and centre. Hard to believe they told him Jesus survived?
     
  5. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2019
    Messages:
    2,774
    Likes Received:
    587
    Paul claims a lot of different things. I'm not saying he wasn't sincere in what he believed,
    but he was not a disciple .. and he didn'r entirely agree with the early Jewish Christians in a lot of respects.
     
  6. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2016
    Messages:
    7,903
    Likes Received:
    1,832
    As I said, the game ends there. Blame it on Paul.

    Just asking: you do know that the gospel accounts of Jesus's appearances after the crucifixion are clear that it is the risen Christ they're taking about, not the Jesus who didn't die? The accounts can be disputed as additions or whatever, but there's no way to make them have a different meaning, imo
     
  7. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2019
    Messages:
    2,774
    Likes Received:
    587
    Clearly, that's what the authors of those Gospels believed. It is quite understandable why people would believe that.
    It is also understandable how Jesus could be seen as a dying saviour and so on.

    However, we all believe what makes sense to us .. or what we want to believe .. or what it is convenient to believe etc.

    If Jesus did NOT die on the cross, does that mean that Jesus taught something different than what the Bible says he taught?
    Does it somehow mean that God won't resurrect us all after death?
     
  8. Ella S.

    Ella S. Logoic Logician

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2021
    Messages:
    697
    Likes Received:
    528
    By my mileage, the only person close to Jesus that we know was claiming he died on the cross was Peter. Paul never knew Jesus before the crucifixion and we don't have any surviving writings from James.

    The only reference to James believing Jesus died on the cross was in 1 Corinthians 15 but that's just relaying the commonly heard story about Jesus. Paul does claim to have personally known James and Peter but we sort of have to take his word on whether they agree with him on this point or not. Paul has a clear bias in that he is a recent convert looking to reform the church so these are claims that I remain fairly skeptical of.

    If we grant that James thought Jesus died on the cross, which I still don't think we can say with much certainty, then I still wonder what your source is for Mary Magdelene.
     
  9. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2016
    Messages:
    7,903
    Likes Received:
    1,832
    It's impossible they did not talk about the crucifixion, and extremely unlikely Jesus deceived both James and Peter. So as I say, it comes down to blaming Paul for making it all up, and that's where the discussion comes up against the wall. It can't progress from there.
     
    Ella S. likes this.
  10. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2016
    Messages:
    7,903
    Likes Received:
    1,832
    Yes because Christ's life and death and resurrection IS his teaching, imo
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2022
  11. Ella S.

    Ella S. Logoic Logician

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2021
    Messages:
    697
    Likes Received:
    528
    I wouldn't necessarily go as far as saying that Paul "made it all up." I'm not sure there is enough evidence for that claim. I'm just saying that I think Paul's claims aren't enough to overcome the high burden of proof required to make his testimony good evidence.

    It's possible that Paul was simply mistaken or poorly communicating or had his understanding of the event distorted by some other outside pressure, or the surviving copies we have of Paul are different from what he actually wrote, etc. There are a number of alternative explanations for why Paul's writings say what they do and intentional deceit is only one of several options.

    I wouldn't make a hard claim on any of those. I just think that Paul is a biased source and much of what he claims cannot be backed up, which makes him unreliable.
     
  12. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2016
    Messages:
    7,903
    Likes Received:
    1,832
    It becomes a fudge. Paul says he spent 15 days with Peter and met James. He says they accepted him as an apostle. It's extremely unlikely he misunderstood them regarding the death on the cross. It's also extremely unlikely Jesus deceived Peter and James. So there it ends, imo
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2022
    Ella S. likes this.
  13. Ella S.

    Ella S. Logoic Logician

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2021
    Messages:
    697
    Likes Received:
    528
    He also claims that they were witnesses to the resurrection, though, which almost certainly couldn't have happened.
     
  14. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2016
    Messages:
    7,903
    Likes Received:
    1,832
    According to the gospels the risen Christ appeared to Peter and James, and all the apostles. I am carefully avoiding including the resurrection. Certainly Christians believe the resurrection. It is central. Atheists obviously don't buy it.
     
    Ella S. likes this.
  15. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2016
    Messages:
    7,903
    Likes Received:
    1,832
    It's nowhere possible to mistake the gospel accounts of the risen Christ for a revived Jesus. It's just not there. So either Jesus's own brother and closest followers lied or got it wrong, or Jesus deceived them all, or else Paul basically got it all wrong. It ends with what Paul says James and Peter told him. Nowhere to go from there?
     
    Ella S. likes this.
  16. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic) Admin

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2018
    Messages:
    3,128
    Likes Received:
    1,663
    Please don't take this as questioning your beliefs: To me, Jesus' teachings were to a large part what he said to various audiences during his preaching ministry. He taught many subjects besides that he was going to die.
     
    RJM likes this.
  17. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2016
    Messages:
    7,903
    Likes Received:
    1,832
    It's fine. I'm talking of Christian belief. The crucifixion and resurrection is pivotal. It's far more than the words and healing ministry of Jesus. Tho not denying their importance. There may be Christian sects that reject the death and resurrection. I don't suppose they are many.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2022
    Ella S. likes this.
  18. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2016
    Messages:
    7,903
    Likes Received:
    1,832
    I wasn't going to go on with this, unless there's anything new?
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2022
  19. badger

    badger Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2022
    Messages:
    751
    Likes Received:
    318
    Paul was never there at any point in that last week, so his belief is what he had.
    James? It's time for you to tell me exactly who this 'James' was that Paul spoke with.
    Cephas? Cephas was extremely upset by Paul and his ideas, and was the only one who wrote about his experiences, none of which included any witness account of the execution or afterwards during the next 36 hours.

    Paul was probably executed in Nero's genocide of Christians, so how does that help any discussion about Jesus and Crucifixion?
    Josephus reporting the stoning of a person (James) not at the crucifixion can't help you with any details about the crucifixion.
     
  20. badger

    badger Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2022
    Messages:
    751
    Likes Received:
    318
    All you have to do is to show if any one of the above was there, saw the execution, went to the tomb or witnessed any part of what happened.
    The fact that Jesus met with his friends and followers again shows me that he lived after those events.

    You're talking about situations that occurred afterwards....these cannot help what happened at the time.
     
    Ella S. likes this.

Share This Page