Jesus and the Crucifixion - Continued from Another Thread.

badger

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It is Jesus saying he is come in fulfillment of the scriptures. There are mounds of writings about the scriptures in question.

There is the Isiaah 'suffering messiah' and Psalm 22. Regardless if they are disputed or not. People dedicate lifetimes looking for OT references to Jesus. Jesus mentions the sign of Jonah. Your argument doesn't fly, imo
What argument?
I was asking if the verses that Jesus quoted could be shown.
I asked a question.
 

badger

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I accept the "minimal facts Jesus;" that he was a Jewish messiah claimant who was executed. I think anything beyond that might be unknowable. We have no idea how many of the teachings attributed to him actually came from him, for instance. All we can do is speculate.

I think there is value in this speculation. I think that, as the debate continues, the surviving ideas about who Jesus was become more and more rigorous. Eventually, we might have a decent enough guess as to who he was and that will probably become the expert consensus. As it stands, it does not seem like there is any such consensus yet and so I withhold my judgment on any of the competing arguments.
Fair enough..... I reckon that lots of people do wait for the experts to find consensus, and decide what's best for everybody.
You mentioned 'teachings'...... Where Jesus made speech to people I don't think of 'teaching' so much as announcements; I think he was appealing to crowds for support, and where he was indirect with these I'm guessing that he needed to take care unless he would be arrested for incitement and provocation. So we are ever hearing about teachings and parables. I live in the UK and the idea of a BBC News Report that our Prime Minister went to visit an industrial complex where he taught the people, and when asked questions he answered with parables is fun to think about. I think that Jesus was standing up against a totally corrupted leadership, a political figure.
 

The Anointed

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I believe that where the fault lies in this debate, is that you all seem to think that everything that came out of the mouth of Jesus actually originated from Jesus, when in fact he spoke not one word on his own authority but only that which he was commanded to say by the Lord God our saviour.

The Lord God our saviour, said to Moses in Deuteronomy 18: 18-19; "I will send them a prophet like you from among their own people; I will put MY WORDS in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command, and whosoever will not heed MY WORDS, which he shall speak in MY NAME, I will surely punish, etc.”

Peter confirms that Jesus was that man, when, concerning the man Jesus, he says in. Acts 3: 22; For Moses said; "The Lord your God will send you a prophet, just as he sent me, and he will be one of your own people, you are to obey everything that he tells you to do. Anyone who does not obey that prophet shall be separated from God's people and destroyed.’

Did the people of his day believe that he was the Lord, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The God of our ancestors? No, they did not, for on the day of his triumphant entry into Jerusalem, the people escorting him cried out, "BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD" Verifying that they believed Jesus to be the one that God had promised Moses that he would choose from among the Israelites, and send to the people to speak in his name.

Jesus spoke not one word on his own authority, but only that which he was commanded to say by the Lord God our savior.

John 5: 24; "Whoever hears my words said Jesus, and believes in “HIM” who sent me, has eternal life.

In reference to the body of Jesus, the temple of the Lord, which had been filled by the spirit of the Lord who had descended upon him in the form of a dove on the day that he was baptised and the heavenly voice was heard to say. "You are my son, 'THIS DAY' I have begotten thee". Or Hebrews 5:5; where it is said "TODAY I have become your Father.

Whose words were these, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up?”

They were the words that Jesus was commanded to say by “I AM,” who raised the body of Jesus, the earthly temple, which had been filled with his spirit.

Acts 5: 30; The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you slew and hanged on a tree.

Acts 13: 30; But God raised him from the dead: and he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee, etc.

1st Corinthians 6: 14; And God has both raised up the Lord and will also raise up us by his own power.

2nd Corinthians 1: 9; But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead.

2nd Corinthians 4: 14; knowing that he who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and bring us with you into his presence.

Acts 17: 31; For He (The Lord God our saviour) has fixed a day in which he shall judge the whole world with justice by means of a MAN he has CHOSEN. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising that MAN from death.

It was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who said through the mouth his obedient servant Jesus, who spoke in ‘HIS NAME;’ “Destroy this Temple and in three days I will raise it up.”

It was the Lord speaking through his obedient servant Jesus, who said that we should eat his body and drink his blood, He was not referring to the physical flesh and blood of Jesus, but his spiritual body and blood, for the physical flesh is of no use at all, it is the spirit that gives life and HIS words spoken through the mouth of Jesus are spirit and the source of life.
 
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The Anointed

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Take this cup from me

These and more you will do

For I goto the father

I should have stipulated; “That Jesus spoke not one word on his own authority, when speaking in the NAME OF THE LORD. The Lord God our saviour would not command Jesus to ask him to change his great plan for the salvation of the race of mankind. But he may have commanded Jesus to tell the disciples that they too would receive the spirit of “THE” Father.

Acts 3: 23; In accordance with his own plan God had already decided that Jesus would be handed over to you; and you killed him by letting sinful men crucify him.

John 8: 28; GNB Catholic Study Edition; So, he said to them, “When you lift up the Son of Man, you will know that ‘I Am Who I Am’; then you will know that I do nothing on my own authority, but I say only what the Father has instructed me to say.
 

The Anointed

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Crucifixion was a rite in the mysteries of many countries and especially those of Egypt, See ‘The Secret Doctrines,’ vol. 11, p. 558. The initiated adept, who had successfully passed all the trials, was tied to a cross deep inside a Temple Crypt or cave, he was then drugged and plunged into a deep sleep in which state, in the darkness of the bowels of the earth, he remained for three days and three nights, during which time his spirit=mind, is said to have descended into Hades to communicate with the Gods.

Moses, who was the adopted grandson of Pharaoh and who would have been afforded the best education in the country, may have been initiated into the circle of the guardians of the sacred secrets.

Moses was one of the two men who appeared in heavenly glory and talked with Jesus about the way in which he would soon fulfil God's purpose by dying in Jerusalem.
 
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Cino

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Crucifixion was a rite in the mysteries of many countries and especially those of Egypt, See ‘The Secret Doctrines,’ vol. 11, p. 558.
Which book is that? Manly P. Hall's "The secret teachings of all Ages"?
 

RabbiO

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Did you mean II (two capital letter i)? If memory serves me right, Madame Blavatsky’s work was only two volumes.
 

The Anointed

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Did you mean II (two capital letter i)? If memory serves me right, Madame Blavatsky’s work was only two volumes.

The first volume is named Cosmogenesis, the second Anthropogenesis, although I haven't had the chance to actually read them.
 

Cino

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The first volume is named Cosmogenesis, the second Anthropogenesis, although I haven't had the chance to actually read them.
If you want to start a little reading project, by picking a section or chapter, and posting your thoughts, I'd participate, that would be interesting.
 

The Anointed

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If you want to start a little reading project, by picking a section or chapter, and posting your thoughts, I'd participate, that would be interesting.

In Volume One, Madam Blavatsky details her interpretation of the origin and evolution of the universe itself, in terms derived from the Hindu concept of cyclical development. The world and everything in it is said to alternate between periods of activity (manvantaras) and periods of passivity (pralayas). Each manvantara lasts many millions of years and consists of a number of Yugas, in accordance with Hindu cosmology.

This is much the same as I have said previously, “According to the ancients, we live in an eternal oscillating universe that expands outward and contracts back to its beginning in space time. A universe that exists in the two states of seemingly visible matter and invisible energy.”

“Universe after universe is like an interminable succession of wheels forever coming into view, forever rolling onwards, disappearing and reappearing; forever passing from being too non-being, and again from non-being to being. In short, the constant revolving of the wheel of life in one eternal cycle, according to fixed and immutable laws, is perhaps after all, the sum and substance of the philosophy of Buddhism. And this eternal wheel has so to speak, six spokes representing six forms of existence.” ---- Mon. Williams, Buddhism, pp. 229, 122.

The days and nights of Brahma are called Manvantara, or the cycle of manifestation, ‘The Great Day,’ which is a period of universal activity, that is preceded, and also followed by ‘Pralaya,’ a dark period, which to our finite minds would seem as an eternity, or but a moment in time.

‘Manvantara,’ is a creative day as seen in the six days of creation in Genesis, ‘Pralaya,’ is the evening that proceeds the next creative day. The six periods of Creation and the seventh day of rest in which we now exist are referred to in the book of Genesis 2: 4; as the “GENERATIONS OF THE UNIVERSE,” or possibly yugas.

The English word “Generation,” is translated from the Hebrew “toledoth,” which is used in the Old Testament in every instance as ‘births,’ or ‘descendants,’ such as “These are the generations of Adam,” or “these are the generations of Abraham, and Genesis 2: 4; it is written concerning the six days of creation; “These are the generations of the Universe or the heavens and earth, etc.” And the ‘Great Day’ in which the seven generations of the universe are eternally repeated, is the eternal cosmic period, or the eighth eternal day in which those who attain to perfection, are allowed to enter, where they shall be surrounded by great light and they shall experience eternal peace, while those who do not attain to perfection are cast back into the refining fires of the seven physical cycles of endless rebirths that perpetually revolve within the eighth eternal cosmic cycle.

To the Hindu, Lord Krishnu, the ‘EIGHTH’ manifestation, or rather, the eighth descendant of Vishnu the savior, is the Supreme Personality to have developed within Brahman.

Enoch the righteous, wrote that God created an ‘EIGHTH’ day also, so that it should be the first after his works, and it is a day eternal with neither hours, days, weeks, months or years, for all time is stuck together in one aeon, etc, etc, and all who enter into the generation of the Light beings, are able to visit all those worlds that still exist in Space-Time, but not in our time.

A series of worlds following one upon the other-- each world rising a step higher than the previous world, so that every later world brings to ripeness the seeds that were imbedded in the former, and itself then prepares the seed for the universe that will follow it.

The mic's yours..... But be careful immersing your mind into the consciousness of Madam Blavatsky, you may lose your faith in the belief that there is no GOD.
 
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