Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/planetearth/noahs_ark_010823-1.html
Now if only Turkey would allow archeologists in.
Now if only Turkey would allow archeologists in.
Noahs ark discovered?
- Thread starter Faithfulservant
- Start date
This is one of those stories that has been simmering for a while. If I remember right, though, there's an argument that the dimensions at Ararat are apparently at odds with the Biblical ark measurements, as per the Genesis description. I'm afraid I don't have a handy article on it, though.
lunamoth
Episcopalian
Just wondering, has anyone ever taken the biblical dimensions of the ark and calculated whether it could hold two of each known species of animal? If there is a discrepancy, how is it explained? This seems like a more doable test of the literal interpretation of the ark.
lunamoth
Episcopalian
That's right and I believe miracles happen. I just wonder why we need material evidence for miracles. I don't get into trying to "debunk" the miracles of the Bible because I think the Bible is God-inspired and also God-protected (in other words, what we have in hand is from God and it is what we are supposed to have. It is not corrupted). However, when I see an agenda searching for material evidence I wonder why? Any evidence that happens to support the literal interpretation is held high while any going against it is argued out of by saying it is miraculous (defies logic). I don't think this serves either the advancement of science or religion.
I guess it is a characteristc of our age so focused on the material world.
I guess it is a characteristc of our age so focused on the material world.
lunamoth
Episcopalian
Faithfulservant said:
Hi Faithfulservant,
I just wanted to say that I am not trying to be snarky against your post (I enjoy your upbeat and positive posting style). I tend to generally critical of scientific claims for spiritual truths so it is nothing personal
. I am interested in what it is up there on that mountain and will be very curious if it turns out to be a man-made structure. Claiming that it is Noah's Ark certainly gets people's attention but I think in the long run these premature claims don't help anyone's faith. Peace,
lunamoth
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
I read an interesting article about it on national geographic.. remember in the bible it took him 100 years to build it.. God told him HOW to build it.. He didnt build it to sail he just needed it to float. The animals came to him.. He didnt go around the world gathering the animals.. in the article the theory was that the world was one continent then and during the flood the bible says that the earth pushed up mountains and created valleys it would be a good time for the tectonic plate shift. Also remember that alot of animals go into hibernation during bad weather. I didnt post it to help anyones faith.. I posted it as a topic for discussion...If its not an interesting topic to discuss why post on it?
I believe that theres a biblical explanation for everything I do not believe that Man has one up on God...ever so I like to play around with theories about how and when things happened in accordance with history on Gods terms. Im not the only one.
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-c013.html
http://arksearch.com/naexped.htm
I believe that theres a biblical explanation for everything I do not believe that Man has one up on God...ever so I like to play around with theories about how and when things happened in accordance with history on Gods terms. Im not the only one.
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-c013.html
http://arksearch.com/naexped.htm
ha ha ha...it did not have to sail, it just needed to float. LOL I just caught that. you know they were all on that ark for over 6 months. Sometime between 6 months and a year! They did not just jump right out after 40 days.
That ship did not have a captains wheel, it was guided by God, the very same who gave the blueprints.
Let me see if I can present a comparrison for perspective.
I served on half a dozen ships in my career, and sailed four of the five oceans. There were times when we (160) crewmembers stayed at sea for over three months (not pulling into port once), during our patrols. Our ship in one particular case was 327 feet long, by 35 feet wide, by 65 feet tall from keel to flying bridge, and only had two decks below main and three decks above (if you could call them decks, they were the superstructure-no living quarters, save for the Captain). We carried a million gallons of bunker C crude oil (for fuel), and 200,000 gallons of potable water. We made fresh water as we went along. We ate the fresh food stuffs first, and lived off of salted, and dried food stuffs later. We often held fish call, to augment our diet. Our Chief cook and his crew were Filipino/Americans (they can make shoe leather a gourmet meal entree...)
We were alloted 30 gallons of water a day per man (we took "sea showers", three minutes of water). We took our dirty uniforms and put them in a web "ditty bag", with a Tide Detergent bar, fastened a line to the bag and through it over the side, letting the salt water and prop wash scrub our clothes clean. He, he, you didn't need starch to make your uniform crisp and stiff - the salt took care of that!
We held a very strict regimen aboard the ship, but still found time to entertain ourselves, and write, and reflect. We became a small village in our own right, very very tight.
My point is if 160 men can survive onboard a tin can 300 feet long by 35 feet wide for three months, an Ark ten times that cubic footage with low maintenance animals for passengers and only 10 or so humans, could last a year. You might think that they couldn't make water to survive? How salty do you think the seas were after 40 days and nights of rain, and a rise of over what, four kilometers in the sea level? I'm certain Noah knew how to distill salt water into fresh, in any event. A ten year old can do it, and Noah was over 500 years old when he set sail.
I don't know about the genetic drift, but then that isn't my forte, engineering is. And from that perspective, it is very possible for a crew and cargo to live for a year at sea.
v/r
Q
p.s. Faithful? Where did you come up with this...nevermind
I served on half a dozen ships in my career, and sailed four of the five oceans. There were times when we (160) crewmembers stayed at sea for over three months (not pulling into port once), during our patrols. Our ship in one particular case was 327 feet long, by 35 feet wide, by 65 feet tall from keel to flying bridge, and only had two decks below main and three decks above (if you could call them decks, they were the superstructure-no living quarters, save for the Captain). We carried a million gallons of bunker C crude oil (for fuel), and 200,000 gallons of potable water. We made fresh water as we went along. We ate the fresh food stuffs first, and lived off of salted, and dried food stuffs later. We often held fish call, to augment our diet. Our Chief cook and his crew were Filipino/Americans (they can make shoe leather a gourmet meal entree...)
We were alloted 30 gallons of water a day per man (we took "sea showers", three minutes of water). We took our dirty uniforms and put them in a web "ditty bag", with a Tide Detergent bar, fastened a line to the bag and through it over the side, letting the salt water and prop wash scrub our clothes clean. He, he, you didn't need starch to make your uniform crisp and stiff - the salt took care of that!
We held a very strict regimen aboard the ship, but still found time to entertain ourselves, and write, and reflect. We became a small village in our own right, very very tight.
My point is if 160 men can survive onboard a tin can 300 feet long by 35 feet wide for three months, an Ark ten times that cubic footage with low maintenance animals for passengers and only 10 or so humans, could last a year. You might think that they couldn't make water to survive? How salty do you think the seas were after 40 days and nights of rain, and a rise of over what, four kilometers in the sea level? I'm certain Noah knew how to distill salt water into fresh, in any event. A ten year old can do it, and Noah was over 500 years old when he set sail.
I don't know about the genetic drift, but then that isn't my forte, engineering is. And from that perspective, it is very possible for a crew and cargo to live for a year at sea.
v/r
Q
p.s. Faithful? Where did you come up with this...nevermind
lunamoth
Episcopalian
Here's another thing to think about that's been "bugging me."
There are over a million known species of insects in the world today, not counting those that have become extinct. Beetles alone count for over 500,000 species. And the category of insects does not include animals like spiders, centipedes or worms, just those with 3 body parts, 6 jointed legs, 2 antennae and an exoskeleton.
Anyway, you need male and female of each type of beetle, bringing that to a million beetles on the ark. Besides just the creepiness of this, consider that conservatively each beetle is less than a cm long (a US penny is almost 2 cm in diameter, for comparison), and to make the math easy lets say that the average beetle can live for a year in a cubic cm . So, if I'm doing this correctly you need 10,000 cubic meters just for the beetles alone.
The ark dimensions I found on the web are 135 m x 22.5 m x 13.5 m = 41,006.25 cubic meters. So, for the beetles alone you need a quarter of the space of the ark just to hold them. If you add in the other 500,000 types of insects (still not including bugs like spiders, centipedes or worms), you need half the space of the ark to hold them.
Good thing that insects account for 95% of all animal species!
cheers,
lunamoth
There are over a million known species of insects in the world today, not counting those that have become extinct. Beetles alone count for over 500,000 species. And the category of insects does not include animals like spiders, centipedes or worms, just those with 3 body parts, 6 jointed legs, 2 antennae and an exoskeleton.
Anyway, you need male and female of each type of beetle, bringing that to a million beetles on the ark. Besides just the creepiness of this, consider that conservatively each beetle is less than a cm long (a US penny is almost 2 cm in diameter, for comparison), and to make the math easy lets say that the average beetle can live for a year in a cubic cm . So, if I'm doing this correctly you need 10,000 cubic meters just for the beetles alone.
The ark dimensions I found on the web are 135 m x 22.5 m x 13.5 m = 41,006.25 cubic meters. So, for the beetles alone you need a quarter of the space of the ark just to hold them. If you add in the other 500,000 types of insects (still not including bugs like spiders, centipedes or worms), you need half the space of the ark to hold them.
Good thing that insects account for 95% of all animal species!
cheers,
lunamoth
ha ha ha. I have thought of the same stuff. actually I think God took care of the spiders and worms and beetles just fine. They could of just lived in the cracks of the boat like they do our houses. And what of the termites? Who knows. I bet some of those bugs just survived kind of hibernated in trees and the ground like grub worms do all fall and winter.lunamoth said:Here's another thing to think about that's been "bugging me."
There are over a million known species of insects in the world today, not counting those that have become extinct. Beetles alone count for over 500,000 species. And the category of insects does not include animals like spiders, centipedes or worms, just those with 3 body parts, 6 jointed legs, 2 antennae and an exoskeleton.
Anyway, you need male and female of each type of beetle, bringing that to a million beetles on the ark. Besides just the creepiness of this, consider that conservatively each beetle is less than a cm long (a US penny is almost 2 cm in diameter, for comparison), and to make the math easy lets say that the average beetle can live for a year in a cubic cm . So, if I'm doing this correctly you need 10,000 cubic meters just for the beetles alone.
The ark dimensions I found on the web are 135 m x 22.5 m x 13.5 m = 41,006.25 cubic meters. So, for the beetles alone you need a quarter of the space of the ark just to hold them. If you add in the other 500,000 types of insects (still not including bugs like spiders, centipedes or worms), you need half the space of the ark to hold them.
Good thing that insects account for 95% of all animal species!
cheers,
lunamoth
I think God just wanted the joy of seeing his servant build this boat and then gather the animals into the ark of safety. So as Noah served God in building the boat, God served Noah in the safety of the Ark. But I bet there were plenty of bugs that just appeared especially from months of animal manure inside. It does not seem very clean in there does it?
I think he took in 2 unclean and seven (7) clean. The confusing part is was it TWO pairs of two? I think the animals just kind of got on board without much fuss.
lunamoth
Episcopalian
Bandit said:
Thank you Bandit for certainly the best and loveliest interpretation. You made my night.
[But maybe this thread is not really meant for the secular/science section.
]
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
Ok if you think about it.. Most bugs could have simply been eggs laying in the fur of the animals and it wasnt necessary to house animals birds fish and bugs that could survive in water. God guided the animals to the ark.. Dont you think he would have thought about planting some eggs in the fur? hmm food for thought.
And Q... where did I come up with what?? no fair starting a sentence and not finishing it.
And Q... where did I come up with what?? no fair starting a sentence and not finishing it.
lunamoth
Episcopalian
Faithfulservant said:
Sounds itchy.
Seeing that I was accused of posting a link to SPAM in the forum beliefs and spiritual (which I am not real pleased about, because I thought this CR was for people to discuss beliefs and I did NOT post a link to SPAM)
Here is a copy and paste with no link -on some bugs and how they survive floods and storms. Some of them actually multiply faster with water and moist condittions.
I am glad everyone thinks this is funny. I am sure there was a lot more wood floating around than just the ark.
Insect Problems Often Follow Floods, Other Disasters
Certain insect problems increase dramatically after flooding, windstorms and other disasters, according to entomologists with the LSU AgCenter.
"Homes are subject to fire ant problems during and after flooding," says LSU AgCenter entomologist Dr. Dennis Ring, adding, "Fire ants often will float around in water and attach themselves to whatever is out of the water."
Ring says that Acephate (Address, Orthene) and baits may be applied to control these pests, and he says bait applications inside the house and acephate along the outside perimeter of the house usually will take care of the problem.
"As floodwaters recede, higher grounds may become heavily infested with fire ants," Ring says.
If these infested areas are where people will be living or working, entomologists say the areas can be treated with one of several baits either by broadcast treatment or by using about 1 tablespoon to 5 tablespoons per mound. They also can be treated with a drench treatment consisting of 1 tablespoon of 75 percent Orthene per 1 gallon of water or applying 1 teaspoon to 2 teaspoons of the material per mound, the entomologists say.
Ring says to pour the drench mixture on the mound slowly so it will penetrate down into the colony –using 2 to 3 quarts per mound.
Another problem that can follow flooding are large groups of wasps found in yards and around plants, says LSU AgCenter entomologist Dr. Dale Pollet, who explains the wasps feed on grubs in the soil.
"High water pushes these grubs closer to the soil surface, and they are more available to the wasps," Pollet explains, adding, however, that the wasps he saw during the state’s last bout of major flooding were Tiphiids, which do not sting. "Whether they would sting is a major concern for people who see them in their yards, but they usually hover just over the surface, fly quickly and are very seldom observed landing.
"But we realize the high numbers in certain areas create anxiety."
Other problems after flooding or storms also have been known to come from filth flies, blow flies and smoky brown cockroaches.
For example, the entomologists say adult flies will lay eggs in decaying or rotting food materials. The immature fly larvae, called maggots, hatch in one or two days, feed for five to 10 days, then pupate. Then more adults emerge in as little as seven to eight days, producing large numbers of flies.
"Sanitation and cleanup are important in preventing the flies," Ring says. "If such problems occur, spray wall surfaces with malathion or other household insecticides. In kitchen areas, use space sprays that contain pyrethrins to kill flying insects."
Smoky brown cockroaches usually live outside and come inside to feed, according to entomologists.
"However, during heavy rain, they may invade houses in larger numbers," Pollet says. "Applications of insecticides containing permethrin may be made to infested areas and around doorways, windows and so forth on the outside."
Most labeled household insecticides will be effective against the smoky browns, the entomologists say, adding, however, that you may want to call a professional pest control operator for additional assistance in combating some of these pests.
In another area of insect problems, the LSU AgCenter entomologists point out that trees often are damaged during a storm, which gives entry to such insects as wood borers, Southern Pine beetles, Ips beetles and so forth.
"Those insects will attack an injured or weakened tree much more readily than they will a healthy one," Pollet cautions, adding, "Sometimes tree roots will be damaged during a windstorm, and the tree may not show symptoms for several months."
Injured pine tree trunks should be sprayed thoroughly with Permethrin, the entomologists recommend.
Carpenter ants also will frequently infest broken limbs and invade houses from infested trees after a storm. These insects do not feed on wood but simply nest in the wood. In general, they are scavengers.
"Control of carpenter ants can be obtained by removing tree limbs and branches from roofs and making sure no limbs come in direct contact with the house," Ring says. "But if problems persist, it may be necessary to spray infested areas of the house with a 0.5 percent solution of malathion or use a bait."
In addition, the trunks of infested trees may require spraying to control the pests in the house, he says, adding that the bottom 1 foot to 2 feet of the house also may require spraying if problems persist.
Moving to another insect problem, Pollet says yellow jackets are highly attracted to sap from trees, sugars and souring foods, and they often will attack people around such objects.
"Yellow jackets also are attracted to people sweating and will sting if disturbed," he cautions.
To control yellow jackets, the entomologists recommend surface applications of 1 percent malathion.
"When working in the yard, keep a pressurized can containing pyrethrin handy to spray the flying yellow jackets and honeybees if they attack," Pollet says, adding, "Areas containing sour foods should be cleaned and washed thoroughly. If necessary, make a residual application of malathion."
Some hardwoods, especially pecan wood, are susceptible to such wood borers as the long-horned beetles. So the entomologists say when you are cutting storm-damaged trees for firewood, be sure to cover the wood so rain does not continue to keep the wood wet, encouraging borer survival.
"Under good, dry conditions, oak wood will carry over from one year to the next," Pollet says. "Pecan firewood, even under dry conditions, does not carry over from one year to the next very well. So try to burn pecan wood during the first year it has been cut."
On the other hand, Ring notes borers that attack firewood rarely infest houses.
Here is a copy and paste with no link -on some bugs and how they survive floods and storms. Some of them actually multiply faster with water and moist condittions.
I am glad everyone thinks this is funny. I am sure there was a lot more wood floating around than just the ark.
Insect Problems Often Follow Floods, Other Disasters
Distributed 09/03/04
Certain insect problems increase dramatically after flooding, windstorms and other disasters, according to entomologists with the LSU AgCenter.
"Homes are subject to fire ant problems during and after flooding," says LSU AgCenter entomologist Dr. Dennis Ring, adding, "Fire ants often will float around in water and attach themselves to whatever is out of the water."
Ring says that Acephate (Address, Orthene) and baits may be applied to control these pests, and he says bait applications inside the house and acephate along the outside perimeter of the house usually will take care of the problem.
"As floodwaters recede, higher grounds may become heavily infested with fire ants," Ring says.
If these infested areas are where people will be living or working, entomologists say the areas can be treated with one of several baits either by broadcast treatment or by using about 1 tablespoon to 5 tablespoons per mound. They also can be treated with a drench treatment consisting of 1 tablespoon of 75 percent Orthene per 1 gallon of water or applying 1 teaspoon to 2 teaspoons of the material per mound, the entomologists say.
Ring says to pour the drench mixture on the mound slowly so it will penetrate down into the colony –using 2 to 3 quarts per mound.
Another problem that can follow flooding are large groups of wasps found in yards and around plants, says LSU AgCenter entomologist Dr. Dale Pollet, who explains the wasps feed on grubs in the soil.
"High water pushes these grubs closer to the soil surface, and they are more available to the wasps," Pollet explains, adding, however, that the wasps he saw during the state’s last bout of major flooding were Tiphiids, which do not sting. "Whether they would sting is a major concern for people who see them in their yards, but they usually hover just over the surface, fly quickly and are very seldom observed landing.
"But we realize the high numbers in certain areas create anxiety."
Other problems after flooding or storms also have been known to come from filth flies, blow flies and smoky brown cockroaches.
For example, the entomologists say adult flies will lay eggs in decaying or rotting food materials. The immature fly larvae, called maggots, hatch in one or two days, feed for five to 10 days, then pupate. Then more adults emerge in as little as seven to eight days, producing large numbers of flies.
"Sanitation and cleanup are important in preventing the flies," Ring says. "If such problems occur, spray wall surfaces with malathion or other household insecticides. In kitchen areas, use space sprays that contain pyrethrins to kill flying insects."
Smoky brown cockroaches usually live outside and come inside to feed, according to entomologists.
"However, during heavy rain, they may invade houses in larger numbers," Pollet says. "Applications of insecticides containing permethrin may be made to infested areas and around doorways, windows and so forth on the outside."
Most labeled household insecticides will be effective against the smoky browns, the entomologists say, adding, however, that you may want to call a professional pest control operator for additional assistance in combating some of these pests.
In another area of insect problems, the LSU AgCenter entomologists point out that trees often are damaged during a storm, which gives entry to such insects as wood borers, Southern Pine beetles, Ips beetles and so forth.
"Those insects will attack an injured or weakened tree much more readily than they will a healthy one," Pollet cautions, adding, "Sometimes tree roots will be damaged during a windstorm, and the tree may not show symptoms for several months."
Injured pine tree trunks should be sprayed thoroughly with Permethrin, the entomologists recommend.
Carpenter ants also will frequently infest broken limbs and invade houses from infested trees after a storm. These insects do not feed on wood but simply nest in the wood. In general, they are scavengers.
"Control of carpenter ants can be obtained by removing tree limbs and branches from roofs and making sure no limbs come in direct contact with the house," Ring says. "But if problems persist, it may be necessary to spray infested areas of the house with a 0.5 percent solution of malathion or use a bait."
In addition, the trunks of infested trees may require spraying to control the pests in the house, he says, adding that the bottom 1 foot to 2 feet of the house also may require spraying if problems persist.
Moving to another insect problem, Pollet says yellow jackets are highly attracted to sap from trees, sugars and souring foods, and they often will attack people around such objects.
"Yellow jackets also are attracted to people sweating and will sting if disturbed," he cautions.
To control yellow jackets, the entomologists recommend surface applications of 1 percent malathion.
"When working in the yard, keep a pressurized can containing pyrethrin handy to spray the flying yellow jackets and honeybees if they attack," Pollet says, adding, "Areas containing sour foods should be cleaned and washed thoroughly. If necessary, make a residual application of malathion."
Some hardwoods, especially pecan wood, are susceptible to such wood borers as the long-horned beetles. So the entomologists say when you are cutting storm-damaged trees for firewood, be sure to cover the wood so rain does not continue to keep the wood wet, encouraging borer survival.
"Under good, dry conditions, oak wood will carry over from one year to the next," Pollet says. "Pecan firewood, even under dry conditions, does not carry over from one year to the next very well. So try to burn pecan wood during the first year it has been cut."
On the other hand, Ring notes borers that attack firewood rarely infest houses.
lunamoth
Episcopalian
Bandit said:Seeing that I was accused of posting a link to SPAM in the forum beliefs and spiritual (which I am not real pleased about, because I thought this CR was for people to discuss beliefs and I did NOT post a link to SPAM)
Here is a copy and paste with no link -on some bugs and how they survive floods and storms. Some of them actually multiply faster with water and moist condittions.
I am glad everyone thinks this is funny. I am sure there was a lot more wood floating around than just the ark.
Dear Bandit,
I hope that my post did not add to your bad day--it certainly was not intended that way at all. I was being most sincere when I said that your reply was great, the part about God being joyous in Noah's obedience and then lovingly taking care of all. I think this gets at the message of the Ark and so it is more important than anything I or anyone else has said in this thread so far.
I have been trying to be lighthearted here and I can see that, as usual, I have been clumsy at trying to pull it off. But please do not think I was making fun of you or your post. Apologies for any misconceptions.
Peace,
lunamoth
p.s. being of the lepidopteran family myself perhaps that is why I focused on bugs
Nah, it is not you at all lunamoth.lunamoth said:Dear Bandit,
I hope that my post did not add to your bad day--it certainly was not intended that way at all. I was being most sincere when I said that your reply was great, the part about God being joyous in Noah's obedience and then lovingly taking care of all. I think this gets at the message of the Ark and so it is more important than anything I or anyone else has said in this thread so far.
I have been trying to be lighthearted here and I can see that, as usual, I have been clumsy at trying to pull it off. But please do not think I was making fun of you or your post. Apologies for any misconceptions.
Peace,
lunamoth
p.s. being of the lepidopteran family myself perhaps that is why I focused on bugs
I have thought about all the creatures and how they would be in a flood that way also. I just wanted to have a discussion on the knowledge of God and the knowledge of good and evil and one of the moderators pretty much through out the entire context and called it Spam and there was no spam on the page I linked to. It was not fair, nor was it right.
I have a big interest in horticulture and entomology. So I thought that would be a better approach on the thread also. I live on two acres and it is really cool to see this land in the way it it is so different from the street and as you walk back through the woods during the spring through fall.
I think if someone wants to believe the Ark story for today, it is more of a TYPE of todays circumstances rather than the animals and creatures. The whole earth is covered in gross darkness (so to speak). The Ark is safety from it.
Then I thought everyone would rather look for 'evidence' because that is what science does. I was in one flood where the water sat for about 2 months and the bugs did not die. In fact it was worse that year after the weather turned nice with more bugs than I ever remember.
I guess the sad part to me is even if the Ark of gopher wood were preserved in the ice, man would still have to go up there and pick pick pick, it apart. Then 10 years later it would still be controversy clear down to the centimeter. No physical evidence in the world is going to bring man to God because He is a Spirit. So that is not something I am interested in trying ot do for obvious reasons. LOL.
That is what it was. Noah was a faithful servant and he found grace before the age of grace. So I can tell when someone is being funny and when someone is making fun. I know you are just trying to have fun too.
So here is an Apology to you from me, in case I say something one day that may be taken with the wrong intent.
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
i thought that article was a great resource for this thread and thank you for reposting it.