How can there be a god?

Ella S.

Well-Known Member
Messages
703
Reaction score
534
Points
88
Location
United States
Strange isn't it?
It's OK that this universe appears to be cruel if G-d doesn't exist, and humans try to "have a good time" and get on with it.

..but if G-d exists, then G-d has made a cruel universe etc.
If it was that bad, we would all want to be dead. :(

This is the sort of rationalization used in abusive relationships. I think that's telling.
 

muhammad_isa

Save Our Souls
Messages
2,958
Reaction score
638
Points
108
Location
Worcester UK
You should. That's basically the very definition of cruelty.
It is more complex than you suggest.
There are millions of people who are suffering in this world .. and millions that are not.
Is it possible to create a mortal world in which there is no suffering?
I wouldn't of thought so.

Death comes to all eventually, and a positive attitude beats a negative one.
"Look at the flowers and not the weeds"
 

Ella S.

Well-Known Member
Messages
703
Reaction score
534
Points
88
Location
United States
It is more complex than you suggest.
There are millions of people who are suffering in this world .. and millions that are not.
Is it possible to create a mortal world in which there is no suffering?
I wouldn't of thought so.

Death comes to all eventually, and a positive attitude beats a negative one.
"Look at the flowers and not the weeds"

We wouldn't have to avoid looking at the weeds if God hadn't planted them, though.
 

Cino

Big Love! (Atheist mystic)
Admin
Messages
3,496
Reaction score
1,903
Points
108
Location
Germany
Cruelty is never OK, whether intentional or unintentional. Certain cruelties are almost impossible, if not impossible to "get on with it". These same cruelties won't promote a "have a good time" attitude.

This.

Belief in the supernatural is not a necessary precondition for having a sense of justice. IMO.

Plenty of people commit suicide because things are impossibly bad for them.

Just a thought, not a question to answer in public: Is there a real-life in-the-flesh person you can talk to about Louie (freely, not family who might depend on you for comfort in this context)?
 
  • Like
Reactions: RJM

RJM

God Feeds the Ravens
Admin
Messages
9,014
Reaction score
2,114
Points
108
We wouldn't have to avoid looking at the weeds if God hadn't planted them, though.
You seem quite annoyed with this God you don't believe in, for not conforming to your own requirements?
 
Last edited:

Thomas

Administrator
Admin
Messages
12,383
Reaction score
2,627
Points
108
I tend to look at it as ... this is the world we inhabit.

It's a finite world, subject to contingency. Things come into being, things pass away ...

There may be n other worlds, under different conditions, some better, some worse perhaps, who knows?
 

RJM

God Feeds the Ravens
Admin
Messages
9,014
Reaction score
2,114
Points
108
Those walking according to the flesh tend towards the flesh; those led by the spirit to what is spirit. Flesh tends towards death, while spirit aims at life and peace
(Romans 8:5-6)

Knowing the soul to be superior to the material senses, steady the mind by spiritual intelligence and thus subdue the lower self by the higher, and kill this formidable enemy called desire.
(B Gita 3:43)

I think this is central to almost every faith?
 
Last edited:

'Amir Alzzalam

Šayṭānist
Messages
453
Reaction score
161
Points
43
I am very sorry for your loss, Amir.
..... I think I can understand how badly you are feeling.
We have two little long-hair dachshunds, children to my childless wife, and great company for me.
Together with my wife they have changed my life.
I love them more than family, that's true.

When I was an infant my parents went to a dog pound, chose a big bull-terrier, brought it home and let it run out in to our garden where I was playing with a baby-sitter. The dog attacked me immediately, dragged me amongst rose bushes and left me injured and in terror. For sixty years I was terrified of dogs, wouldn't walk along a road if a dog was running loose in it....dogs just knew that I was terrified of them and it affected them = a descending terror and hatred of dogs.

My wife loves dogs, and she insisted that I watch all the Caesar Milan films, and in 2009 she told me that a little dachshund puppy had been brought in to the veterinary surgery where she works, and that she wanted to bring it home 'on trial'. It was only little; the cats didn't like it and I had to fend for it in the early days, but then it (called Smu) 'became', challenged all the cats and won the title of top-pet. I fell in love with it within about two weeks. And then we bought another dachshund.

And so, Amir, I know how upset you are.

I am a Deist, believe that every atom and tiniest force is a part of a vast and enormous Deity, the whole of everything. I am old now and our first little daxy is old as well. I have asked my wife to keep our ashes until we can be mixed together and sprinkled in the sea where Smu and I have swum together so often. :)

I am very sorry for your loss, Amir.
View attachment 2912
Thank you so much for sharing that with me, it means a lot. And thank you for explaining your beliefs with me.
 

'Amir Alzzalam

Šayṭānist
Messages
453
Reaction score
161
Points
43
This.

Belief in the supernatural is not a necessary precondition for having a sense of justice. IMO.
Plato implied that we all inherently know what is good or evil, that we don't need anything, such as a deity or a religion, to convey this to us, unless someone is not in their right mind, we all know whether we are doing something good or evil and we choose to do one or the other. In this respect, we all answer to our conscience.



Just a thought, not a question to answer in public: Is there a real-life in-the-flesh person you can talk to about Louie (freely, not family who might depend on you for comfort in this context)?
Thank you for thinking of this, I keep in touch with my friends and joined a Facebook group who are all dealing with this exact experience we went through with Hemangiosarcoma and Louie. Each day the pain lessens and this weekend is the first time my whole household is sitting around and talking about the good times with Louie, our prior pets, dogs in general, instead of grieving hysterically. Again thank you . . .
 

Ella S.

Well-Known Member
Messages
703
Reaction score
534
Points
88
Location
United States
You seem quite annoyed with this God you don't believe in, for not conforming to your own requirements?

I have more of an issue with the fact that believers so easily justify tragedies and natural disasters.

We all have our coping mechanisms, I get it, but to try to paint these things as "good" in some way is... well, it's wrong, in my opinion. They're not good. We need to do our best as a society to combat them and their destructive effects.
 

muhammad_isa

Save Our Souls
Messages
2,958
Reaction score
638
Points
108
Location
Worcester UK
I have more of an issue with the fact that believers so easily justify tragedies and natural disasters.

We all have our coping mechanisms, I get it, but to try to paint these things as "good" in some way is... well, it's wrong, in my opinion. They're not good. We need to do our best as a society to combat them and their destructive effects.
..such as?
 

RJM

God Feeds the Ravens
Admin
Messages
9,014
Reaction score
2,114
Points
108
I have more of an issue with the fact that believers so easily justify tragedies and natural disasters.

We all have our coping mechanisms, I get it, but to try to paint these things as "good" in some way is... well, it's wrong, in my opinion. They're not good. We need to do our best as a society to combat them and their destructive effects.
I think a few folks may be in for a bit of a surprise to find out some of the folks they're required to share paradise with, lol
 

Ella S.

Well-Known Member
Messages
703
Reaction score
534
Points
88
Location
United States
..such as?

...every tragedy and natural disaster? From every cancer victim to everyone killed by hurricanes. To say that these are the product of a loving, just God, well, I just don't see it. Telling people that have experienced tragedy that it's actually a good thing and they deserve it usually doesn't provide much comfort and makes you look like a sadist.
 

muhammad_isa

Save Our Souls
Messages
2,958
Reaction score
638
Points
108
Location
Worcester UK
...every tragedy and natural disaster? From every cancer victim to everyone killed by hurricanes. To say that these are the product of a loving, just God, well, I just don't see it..
What do you see?
That everything happens by chance, and that when you are dead, you will know no more and it is all meaningless?
 

Ella S.

Well-Known Member
Messages
703
Reaction score
534
Points
88
Location
United States
What do you see?
That everything happens by chance, and that when you are dead, you will know no more and it is all meaningless?

I don't think everything happens by chance, I think they happen predictably according to the laws of nature, of which we are merely one product.

Meaning is something we evolved to help our species survive. It can only exist while we are alive to experience it.
 

muhammad_isa

Save Our Souls
Messages
2,958
Reaction score
638
Points
108
Location
Worcester UK
Meaning is something we evolved to help our species survive..
What is the point of survival?
Is this life so pleasurable that we must survive to enjoy it?
I don't get it. Most of the time I am in physical and mental pain.

However, I don't blame G-d for that because He created me etc.
I see that life has more meaning than worldly pleasure.
..and I don't believe that when I die, I might as well not have been born. :)
 

Ella S.

Well-Known Member
Messages
703
Reaction score
534
Points
88
Location
United States
What is the point of survival?

I think this is a nonsensical question, in my opinion. "Points" are something that we evolved to come up with because they help us survive. Survival would be a meta-purpose, not being a true purpose itself nor having one. The concept of a point is, itself, a relatively recent one. Evolution came first.

Is this life so pleasurable that we must survive to enjoy it?

I am indifferent towards pleasure, although a healthy mind and a healthy body usually goes hand-in-hand with pleasure and contentment, anyway, and health is a good measure of how well one is surviving.

I don't get it. Most of the time I am in physical and mental pain.

I'm sorry to hear that. Me, too. I just went in for another surgery and I feel the pain through the prescription-strength painkillers.

However, I don't blame G-d for that because He created me etc.

Neither do I, because I don't believe God exists.

I see that life has more meaning than worldly pleasure.

I agree. In fact, outside of what I consider to be our objective purpose (which is maximizing welfare, not pleasure), I obviously recognize that humans can find relative meaning in a wide variety of things. I'm not the arbiter of what other people feel is meaningful or fulfilling.

..and I don't believe that when I die, I might as well not have been born. :)

I don't believe that, either, so I'm glad we're in agreement on that one.
 

muhammad_isa

Save Our Souls
Messages
2,958
Reaction score
638
Points
108
Location
Worcester UK
I think this is a nonsensical question, in my opinion. "Points" are something that we evolved to come up with because they help us survive. Survival would be a meta-purpose, not being a true purpose itself nor having one..
I am not so sure that it is nonsensical..

You say "Meaning is something we evolved to help our species survive".

Is it really about the survival of a species?
..or isn't there a more cosmic reason why we experience our lives, perhaps learning things in the process?

I refer to meaning in a cosmic sense .. just like an historian gets meaning from his history books.
History cannot be wiped out by death.
 

Ella S.

Well-Known Member
Messages
703
Reaction score
534
Points
88
Location
United States
I am not so sure that it is nonsensical..

You say "Meaning is something we evolved to help our species survive".

Is it really about the survival of a species?
..or isn't there a more cosmic reason why we experience our lives, perhaps learning things in the process?

It's really an adaptive mutation that was naturally selected for because it was beneficial for our continued survival and reproduction. The "cosmic reason" would be "because of abiogenesis, chemical evolution, and biological evolution."

I refer to meaning in a cosmic sense .. just like an historian gets meaning from his history books.
History cannot be wiped out by death.

Depends on what you mean by "history." Many unrecorded events go forgotten forever every day as the last people who remember them die. If by "history" you mean "the past," although I would protest at this use of the term, then I agree. Our death doesn't erase what we did in our life. I think that much should be uncontroversial and obvious to everyone.
 
Top