The Gospel of John

badger

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Please can you give me an example of G-JOHNs geographic accuracy?
 

Thomas

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Please can you give me an example of G-JOHNs geographic accuracy?

This is from a longish exposition on the GoJ in general here:
(7) The fourth Gospel actually presents a much more consistently chronological account of Jesus’ ministry, even though that emerges not as a primary intention but as a “fringe benefit” of its desire to include material from Jesus attending the various Jerusalem festivals (which can be dated). John likewise contains more details of geography and topography than any of the Synoptics and, where he can be tested, he has consistently been shown to be accurate.

Another essay here:
The writer of John knows his stuff when it comes to Palestinian geography and topography.

In John 2:12, we read the trip from Cana to Capernaum is going down. Similarly, in John 4:46-47, it says that Jesus came again to Cana and a royal official who had a sick son in Capernaum came to him. He implores Jesus to “come down” and heal his son. The elevation of Cana is 709 feet above sea level. Capernaum is minus 682 feet. Jn 5:1 says afterward, Jesus “went up” to Jerusalem, presumably from Cana. Jerusalem has an elevation of 2575 feet.

There’s the mention of the view of Jacob’s well, which would include Mount Gerazim and cornfields. (John 4:20, 35) There’s even the mention of the depth of the well. (Jn 4:11)

John 5:1-3 mentions the Pool of Bethesda, which was surrounded by five covered colonnades. In the 1950s, archaeologists discovered the remains of the pool. This pool was located by the sheep gate and enclosed by five roofed colonnades.

Bethany near Jerusalem is described with spot-on precision as being 15 stadia away from the city. (Jn 11:18) This Bethany is distinguished from “Bethany beyond the Jordan.” (Jn 1:28)

The author also mentions that Jesus walked in the Colonnade of Solomon during winter. The roofed walkway would’ve protected Jesus from the cold winds. (John 10:23)

The writer also mentions that Ephraim is near the wilderness (John 11:54), the location of the Pool of Siloam (John 9:11), the dimensions of the Sea of Galilee (John 6:19), and the brook Kidron. (Jn 18:1)

In John, we find a number of small villages mentioned: Aenon, Cana, Ephraim, Salim, and Sychar.

It’s interesting to note that John was a fisherman by trade. He mentions 5 bodies of water. (Bethesda, Kidron, the Jordan River, the Sea of Galilee, and the Pool of Siloam.) The Synoptic writers only mention two bodies of water in comparison. (They all mention the river Jordan. Mark and Matthew mention the Sea of Galilee. Luke mentions Siloam.)

Also, John is the lone NT writer who refers to the Sea of Galilee by the name Sea of Tiberias (Jn 6:1, see also Jn 21:1). This is actually the right local usage. In the 20’s BC, King Herod finished the building of the town of Tiberias on the southwestern shore of the lake. After this, the name Sea of Tiberias started to be used for the lake itself.

And there's an essay: Topography and Theology in the Gospel of John, 14 pages, but worth a skim, at least.

+++

The bit I can't find is an essay that shows how in one account the Synoptics are geographically wrong, or inidcate the writer does not know the terrain, whereas John is correct. I'll keep looking ...
 

badger

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This is from a longish exposition on the GoJ in general here:
(7) The fourth Gospel actually presents a much more consistently chronological account of Jesus’ ministry, even though that emerges not as a primary intention but as a “fringe benefit” of its desire to include material from Jesus attending the various Jerusalem festivals (which can be dated). John likewise contains more details of geography and topography than any of the Synoptics and, where he can be tested, he has consistently been shown to be accurate.

Another essay here:
The writer of John knows his stuff when it comes to Palestinian geography and topography.

In John 2:12, we read the trip from Cana to Capernaum is going down. Similarly, in John 4:46-47, it says that Jesus came again to Cana and a royal official who had a sick son in Capernaum came to him. He implores Jesus to “come down” and heal his son. The elevation of Cana is 709 feet above sea level. Capernaum is minus 682 feet. Jn 5:1 says afterward, Jesus “went up” to Jerusalem, presumably from Cana. Jerusalem has an elevation of 2575 feet.

There’s the mention of the view of Jacob’s well, which would include Mount Gerazim and cornfields. (John 4:20, 35) There’s even the mention of the depth of the well. (Jn 4:11)

John 5:1-3 mentions the Pool of Bethesda, which was surrounded by five covered colonnades. In the 1950s, archaeologists discovered the remains of the pool. This pool was located by the sheep gate and enclosed by five roofed colonnades.

Bethany near Jerusalem is described with spot-on precision as being 15 stadia away from the city. (Jn 11:18) This Bethany is distinguished from “Bethany beyond the Jordan.” (Jn 1:28)

The author also mentions that Jesus walked in the Colonnade of Solomon during winter. The roofed walkway would’ve protected Jesus from the cold winds. (John 10:23)

The writer also mentions that Ephraim is near the wilderness (John 11:54), the location of the Pool of Siloam (John 9:11), the dimensions of the Sea of Galilee (John 6:19), and the brook Kidron. (Jn 18:1)

In John, we find a number of small villages mentioned: Aenon, Cana, Ephraim, Salim, and Sychar.

It’s interesting to note that John was a fisherman by trade. He mentions 5 bodies of water. (Bethesda, Kidron, the Jordan River, the Sea of Galilee, and the Pool of Siloam.) The Synoptic writers only mention two bodies of water in comparison. (They all mention the river Jordan. Mark and Matthew mention the Sea of Galilee. Luke mentions Siloam.)

Also, John is the lone NT writer who refers to the Sea of Galilee by the name Sea of Tiberias (Jn 6:1, see also Jn 21:1). This is actually the right local usage. In the 20’s BC, King Herod finished the building of the town of Tiberias on the southwestern shore of the lake. After this, the name Sea of Tiberias started to be used for the lake itself.

And there's an essay: Topography and Theology in the Gospel of John, 14 pages, but worth a skim, at least.

+++

The bit I can't find is an essay that shows how in one account the Synoptics are geographically wrong, or inidcate the writer does not know the terrain, whereas John is correct. I'll keep looking ...
Thank you very much for your efforts. That's my homework sorted for the next couple of days. :)
 

badger

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This is from a longish exposition on the GoJ in general here:
(7) The fourth Gospel actually presents a much more consistently chronological account of Jesus’ ministry, even though that emerges not as a primary intention but as a “fringe benefit” of its desire to include material from Jesus attending the various Jerusalem festivals (which can be dated).

Wow! I'll be sending rather a lot of posts in reply to your chronology, topography, geography points about G-John. This is the first.

Firstly, I won't be referring to 'The Synoptics' that much because if G-Mark is wrong then so is the timeline, topography and geography of the other two.

The trouble with G-John's chronology is that it's author/s didn't actually know what happened or when or where anything happened. G-Mark gives a clear and staright account in a timeline which can be followed over about 11-12 months, mostly within Galilee and the Northern provinces and with only one journey to Jerusalem, that last week. The idea that Jesus went to and from the Temple so regularly is most strange, and we (mostly) don't know whom he went with or have any idea about how long that journey took him.

Jesus was a working class person (there was no middle class) without the funds for easy travel, nor with the time to spare imo. He needed to work, campaign and build support....in Galilee-and-North, and that's where G-Mark recorded him. Let me look at one travel event from many:-

John {2:1} And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there: ....................... {2:11} This
beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

John {2:12} After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples: and they continued there not many days.

John {2:13} And the Jews’ passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem, {2:14} And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: {2:15} And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple,


Any of the working folks who lived on the hill-settlements around Zippori (Sephoris) understood how high these places were, on average about 1000ft above the plain, and for the author/s of G-John to mention this cannot be a great point imo.... G-Mark records Jesus as going to Nazareth about twice that year so no big issue.

The problem with the account in John is 'Which Cana?'? Looking at Map 1 you can see that Cana is shown to be almost due North of Nazareth, about ten miles away, but Cana has about four different positions on historical maps and the position shown in map 2, about two miles to the North East of Nazareth seems to be the more likely to me. All the hilltops around Sepphoris would have been tented communities of working people who were gaining livings (mostly) from the rebuilding of Sepphoris; it should be noted that labourers, hauliers, wood/stone and metal workers were all displaced from the land by birth and itinerant families...they went to where the work was, and we still cannot be absolutely sure about which of these hills was the Cana referred to in G-John. Travel from any of these to the lakeside was topographically a journey 'downwards'....... but G-John's author/s had no idea which hilltop, any more than I do, methinks.

And see how Jesus left Capernaum and just 'went up to Jerusalem'? That's a 120 mile journey ...along the lake to the Jordan, along to Jericho, and then over to Jerusalem. Just how long did that take? We have no detail of any of these journeys in G-John.

I can only reply to about one sentence of your post per day....... there you are, you've tied me down! Christians 1 - Pagans 0. :D

MAP1
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MAP2
P1020786.JPG
 

Thomas

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OK, @badger, no rush ... I'm not an expert on this, but happy enough to engage.
 

RabbiO

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Actually, there was a middle class.
 

badger

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OK, @badger, no rush ... I'm not an expert on this, but happy enough to engage.
This is new ground for me, Thomas. Most interesting.......
Moving forward:-
The writer of John knows his stuff when it comes to Palestinian geography and topography.
Yes.
In John 2:12, we read the trip from Cana to Capernaum is going down. Similarly, in John 4:46-47, ...........................The elevation of Cana is 709 feet above sea level. Capernaum is minus 682 feet. Jn 5:1 says afterward, Jesus “went up” to Jerusalem, presumably from Cana. Jerusalem has an elevation of 2575 feet.
Your whole paragraph was interesting, but especially these heights and depths.
So we know that the writer had intimate knowledge of such journeys....... I make that claim because of the Cana to Capernaum journey being 'down'. Nobody would mention the journey from a tiny hillside community to a lakeside fishing village as 'down' unless they knew it personally, imo.
The journey to Jerusalem will be 'up' from mostly any direction, so that inclusion impresses me less.
There’s the mention of the view of Jacob’s well, which would include Mount Gerazim and cornfields. (John 4:20, 35) There’s even the mention of the depth of the well. (Jn 4:11)
Yes. What impresses me about this account is that it is deep in to the heart of Samaria. I think it is reasonable to suggest that Jews didn't go there u nless they felt very confident in their safety, which suggests to me that Jesus was with a strong group...... ergo, his disciples were obviously very very tough folks. I notice how in ...
John {4:1} ........ Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John.......
.... he was in a strong group. I include a map of Samaria to show Mount Gerizim, well within Samaria's borders. Most Jews would have stayed right out of Samaria and travelled along the East Bank of the Jordan to go south (Which is where the Immerser had waited to meet with them).

John 5:1-3 mentions the Pool of Bethesda, which was surrounded by five covered colonnades. In the 1950s, archaeologists discovered the remains of the pool. This pool was located by the sheep gate and enclosed by five roofed colonnades.
Yes. And so it looks as if the writer had intimate knowledge of Jerusalem.
Bethany near Jerusalem is described with spot-on precision as being 15 stadia away from the city. (Jn 11:18) This Bethany is distinguished from “Bethany beyond the Jordan.” (Jn 1:28)
Yes. In G-Mark Bethany is a short walk out from Jerusalem, the place where Jesus stayed (with Simon) two nights (or three?) running. And G-John pins it down nicely.
The author also mentions that Jesus walked in the Colonnade of Solomon during winter. The roofed walkway would’ve protected Jesus from the cold winds. (John 10:23)
Again, the author had intimate knowledge of that place.
The writer also mentions that Ephraim is near the wilderness (John 11:54), the location of the Pool of Siloam (John 9:11), the dimensions of the Sea of Galilee (John 6:19), and the brook Kidron. (Jn 18:1)
Yes.
In John, we find a number of small villages mentioned: Aenon, Cana, Ephraim, Salim, and Sychar.
Yes...... Sychar being where Jacobs Well is.
And so we know that the writer had intimate knowledge oif these places. That's interesting.
I find many, many valuable pieces of information in G-John that the other gospels don't mention, but that's true of each gospel. To tell us that Judas's father was named Simon might not seem particularly wonderful to many readers, but to me it's simply another piece of information, and it tells me that the writer knew a lot about Judas = he knew a lot about those people.
I wonder who the writer/s was/were?
P1020790.JPG
 

badger

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Actually, there was a middle class.
Hello RabbiO ........
Please tell us more....... obviously successful merchants, brigands and others could gain more power and status, so there was some movement upwards, but do you think that there was much? I think the Levites held the upper levels, what do you think?
 

badger

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Another essay here:
The writer of John knows his stuff when it comes to Palestinian geography and topography.
Yes....... I think so as well, and all the way through the account it has been 'the writer' and 'the author' of John whom has been under consideration with regards to any topographical and geographical knowledge that has been shown.

]It’s interesting to note that John was a fisherman by trade. He mentions 5 bodies of water. (Bethesda, Kidron, the Jordan River, the Sea of Galilee, and the Pool of Siloam.) The Synoptic writers only mention two bodies of water in comparison. (They all mention the river Jordan. Mark and Matthew mention the Sea of Galilee. Luke mentions Siloam.)
And here is the switch........ from author/writer to disciple. John worked for his dad on Gennesaret and had visited both Northern and Southern Jordan as a traveller. All but two of the close disciples were fishermen, we hear, and they all knew their home water. Control of fishing was heavily regulated and I doubt that they could fish anywhere else. The idea that a fisherman would be intimately aware of a Jerusalem pool or brook is most strange.... they hardly ever went there.

The fact that the author/s of G-John knew a bit about the geography of Palestine helps to prove that disciple John never did write that book or he would have told us all about the geography surrounding the most amazing moments of his life, and none of that is mentioned. (the Transfiguration mountain)

Also, John is the lone NT writer who refers to the Sea of Galilee by the name Sea of Tiberias (Jn 6:1, see also Jn 21:1). This is actually the right local usage. In the 20’s BC, King Herod finished the building of the town of Tiberias on the southwestern shore of the lake. After this, the name Sea of Tiberias started to be used for the lake itself.
This proves that John did not write G-John! The author/s of G-John used the name for Gennesaret that would have been used by more wealthy, higher station, higher status folks who focused upon the exclusive luxuries that Tiberias offered to the leaders. The boatmen on the Northern shores of Gennesaret would never have used that name.

Where I live something similar happens. The great body of water near me, one of the busiest seas in the world for great ships, we all call it 'The English Channel', but ALL the millions of people who live on it's NW shore call it 'La Manche' and when both our lands joined together to build a huge tunnel running right underneath this sea it was not called the Channel-Tunnel during construction, but the 'Trans Manche Link' on both shores.

Different cultures have different names sometimes.

And there's an essay: Topography and Theology in the Gospel of John, 14 pages, but worth a skim, at least.
I'm going to research this subject in all the gospels now......you've introduced me to a new angle about these books. :)

The bit I can't find is an essay that shows how in one account the Synoptics are geographically wrong, or inidcate the writer does not know the terrain, whereas John is correct. I'll keep looking ...
I doubt that the book will succeed, Thomas, but if you find it.....
G-John doesn't mention much about Jesus's travels around Genesseret, the Decapolis nor up to Phoenician ports, and it's total unawareness of the mountain of the Transfiguration has to be the clincher, I think. G-Mark does very well
 

badger

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Actually, there was a middle class.
Hello RabbiO.......... please could you tell us about the middle class in Judea, Idumea, Perea, Decapolis, Gallilee and Northern Provinces in the early first century?
 

Ella S.

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Hello RabbiO.......... please could you tell us about the middle class in Judea, Idumea, Perea, Decapolis, Gallilee and Northern Provinces in the early first century?

According to another thread, the Rabbi seems to be a bit busy. Just give him some time to respond.

I would say "most of us have lives outside of this forum" but I'm not actually sure that's true. I started posting during a very liminal period in my life where I was a NEET recovering from homelessness and a lot of users here are probably retired, so I suspect that quite a few of us have an inordinate amount of time on our hands.

Still, one of the reasons why I prefer forums over all other methods of interacting with people is that I can take a break whenever I want and come back to a thread whenever I want. I can also take as much time as I need to think through and re-read my responses before posting them (although I need to get in the habit of re-reading before I post instead of after). It's not a chatgroup where immediate responses are required; some conversations on this site go without a reply for over a decade.

The other reasons I prefer forums include their anonymity, that they are less direct or personal than something like email, and that random people can wander into the conversation to add pertinent information. I also enjoy the topic-oriented nature of threads, generally allowing me to share information about myself only when I'm comfortable with it and usually not needing to since it's irrelevant to the topic at hand. If a thread is too personal for my taste, I can just avoid it altogether.

For instance, you didn't ask me what my other reasons for preferring forums are. My only reason for sharing that was to point out to lurkers in this thread who might be interested in how to market their own forums or what the strengths of the format are if they decide to post on one or moderate one, but they are free to take or leave my input at their leisure without ever having to talk directly to me about it. I think that's useful.

Another benefit of forums is that I can write these cringy meta posts with lengthy detail, almost turning into mini-essays, and it doesn't bog down the discussion. Other users can ignore my wall of text and focus only on the comments that specifically reply to them or other side-conversations happening within a thread. It's all very organic. Well, except you, I guess, since I'm directly replying to you. Sorry for that one.

Edit: Oh my God I'm starting to sound like Dagon. I hope that doesn't become a running theme.
 

badger

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I would always prefer to open threads about gospel comparisons in an historical section, rather than a Christian one, but this position was chosen by the bosses, so....ok.

This thread was initiated in consideration of G-John's topographical and geographical detail, so I might as well carry one with it and expand it.

G-John's timeline and descriptions of journeys undertaken by Jesus does not compare well with G-Mark's, and I will show examples of this for your scrutiny.

By removing all conversations and actions of Jesus, only focusing upon his travels, this can help to show you what I mean. I am only using G-Mark as the comparison because both Matthew and Luke copied it, word-for-word in some places.

A short review from the Gospel of John:-

{5:2} Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep [market] a pool.......
(where Jesus cured a man)
{5:14} Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple......
(where Jesus conversed with the man)
{6:1} After these things Jesus went over the sea of Galilee,
(This is a sudden and unexplained 100 mile journey)
{6:2} And a great multitude followed him.....
( ...so Jesus probably travelled around the SofG; a multitude wasn't going to find an armada o boats)
{6:3} And Jesus went up into a mountain,
That would be to the NE of the SofG, because Jesus went around the SofG from the SW.)
{6:4} And the passover, a feast of the Jews, was nigh.
(So Jesus was not in Jerusalem for this feast, he feeds a multitude of people on this mountain)
{6:15} ......Jesus .................departed again into a mountain himself alone.
(OK)
{6:16} And when even was [now] come, his disciples went down unto the sea,
(they set off for Capernaum)
{6:21} Then they willingly received him (Jesus) into the ship: and immediately the ship was at the land whither they went.
(Capernaum)

So Jesus was in Jerusalem, went to the NE of the SofG, and then went to Capernaum.

Now I would like to show the verses around this event as deposed in G-Mark.

{6:1} And he................. came into his own country;
9Nazareth)
{6:3} Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary,
(Definitely Nazareth)
{6:4} But Jesus said unto them............ and in his own house.
(Absolutely Nazareth)
{6:7} And he called [unto him] the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two;
(Canvassing throughout Galilee, methinks.)
{6:14} And king Herod heard [of him;]
('King' Antipas ruled Galilee..... they were all canvassing around Galilee)
{6:30} And the apostles gathered (and reported to Jesus)
{6:32} And they departed into a desert place by ship privately.
(You will see how they came to the NE of the SofG later))
{6:35}.......... his disciples came ......... 'This is a desert place......'
(You see? Desert place),
{6:37} He answered ....Give ye them to eat.
9Jesus fed the same multitude as reported in G-John)
{6:46} And when he had sent them away, he departed into a mountain to pray.
That same mountain, most likely)
{6:47} .......the ship was in the midst of the sea, ......{6:48} And he saw them ... walking upon the sea,
(The disciples collected Jesus in to their boat)
{6:53} And when they had passed over, they came into the land of Gennesaret,
(NW SofG, probably Capernaum.)


The Question begs, 'Was the feeding event in G-John the same as reported in G-Mark?'
If so, which journey route was the real one? Jerusalem, NE SofG, Capernaum ..... or Nazareth, Canvassing Galilee, NESofG, Capernaum?

Or is there an explanation which could marry the two reports together?
 

Ella S.

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I would always prefer to open threads about gospel comparisons in an historical section, rather than a Christian one, but this position was chosen by the bosses, so....ok.

I think it doesn't make too much of a difference. It's about Christian history, it could really go in either location, but since it is specifically about history relevant to Christianity and the history section is more general, I can see an argument for it being better fit for this section so that the history section can be more of a misc. category for threads that don't fit anywhere else.

You should still be allowed to add non-Christian perspectives here since it seems to happen quite a bit. It's just a way to sort the topic according to relevance.
 

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would always prefer to open threads about gospel comparisons in an historical section, rather than a Christian one, but this position was chosen by the bosses, so....ok.
@badger
Where would you like it moved to? Are you happy with the name of the thread?
 

badger

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I think it doesn't make too much of a difference. It's about Christian history, it could really go in either location, but since it is specifically about history relevant to Christianity and the history section is more general, I can see an argument for it being better fit for this section so that the history section can be more of a misc. category for threads that don't fit anywhere else.

You should still be allowed to add non-Christian perspectives here since it seems to happen quite a bit. It's just a way to sort the topic according to relevance.
Hello again..... It's up to the bosses but I have never been member of any forum where non-Christians could batter Christianity. This forum is an exception but I don't feel comfortable to debate Christianity unless in a 'religion debating' or an 'historical' section.

I'll get used to it, I guess.
 

badger

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@badger
Where would you like it moved to? Are you happy with the name of the thread?

Yes, the name of the thread would be bang-on.
It's just that followers of any religion shouldn't have to read writings which question their religion in any way if they don't want to. If there could be a room just for debating religions which folks can go to, then followers of faiths who don't want to be upset by outsider debaters don't ever have to even read such thread titles. A kind of 'Debating room' .

Not all threads on Interfaith.org are pleasant discussions....... some are debates, I think.
 

RJM

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Thread has been moved from Christianity to History and Mythology forum
 
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RJM

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It's just that followers of any religion shouldn't have to read writings which question their religion in any way if they don't want to
We have a code against aggressively attacking other faiths, and also against proselytizing -- so I suppose it may be about trying to moderate the tone of the questions? For people who are not comfortable with interfaith discussion there are many website forums dedicated to individual faiths and religions ?

Just my thoughts ...
Members are encouraged to use the Report button to flag posts they find objectionable

I think a problem may be when 'questioning' someone else's religion I appear to ignore whatever answers I do get -- or refuse to give the answers any credit -- and just go on and on rehashing the same question, often across multiple threads?*

*Not aimed at you @badger
 
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RJM

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@Thomas
@badger

I sometimes wonder if Nicodemus could have been the author of John's gospel. Nicodemus has always intrigued me. He was also the one who bought the spices to the tomb. Do either of you have more insight? Does he meet the requirements as author?

Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”

Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

“How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

“How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.

“You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

John 3:1-12 Read full chapter

I wonder what Christ really meant when he spoke to Nicodemus?

From
https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/20134/#post-360186

I wonder if Jesus was introducing Nicodemus into the 'inner sanctum' esoteric teaching?

I think many religions have the inner sanctum esoteric teachings for the 'elect few' which are diluted to become 'good living' social mores for the ordinary people and householders?
 
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