Roe v Wade

[wil]

Landmark decision from 70s overturned in US.

This is a good test for us to have a serious respectful discussion.

Can we start with where your countries laws are in relation to terminating a pregnancy? (The term abortion is interesting my 80+ retired nurse mom tells me abortion was a common word in when she was in school. It meant any termination of a pregnancy then. But then the term miscarriage came into vogue for a natural termination when the body rejected the fetus.)

 

[RabbiO]

USA

 

[wil]

USA

I don't know how to interpret that response.

 

[Namaste Jesus]

Landmark decision from 70s overturned in US.

This is a good test for us to have a serious respectful discussion.

Can we start with where your countries laws are in relation to terminating a pregnancy? (The term abortion is interesting my 80+ retired nurse mom tells me abortion was a common word in when she was in school. It meant any termination of a pregnancy then. But then the term miscarriage came into vogue for a natural termination when the body rejected the fetus.)

Well, in the state you and I live in, the Roe vs Wade reversal has little impact. Just means abortion is no longer a constitutional right. In other words, states that so choose, like ours are still free to perform abortions, but states that do not are no longer obligated to do so. Although, except where medically necessary, I'd imagine the decision will limit or eliminate federal funding for such across the board.

I believe my mom referred to miscarriage as spontaneous abortion or perhaps that was my grandmother's phrase. Not sure now.

 

[Cino]

Germany just got rid of a law probiting medical doctors from offering information about abortion, unlike other medical procedures, where doctors could inform their patients of the options they had, enabing them to make decisions.

But that weird legal taboo is gone now! (It had been introduced by the Nazi regime in 1933)

Abortion is illegal in Germany, but there are exceptions, introduced in the 1970ies after extensive parliamentary debates. During the first 12 Weeks, after counseling and a 3-days period for reconsidering the decision, there is no legal penalty for a woman seeking an abortion or the medical personnel involved in the procedure.

 

[RJM]

The British:

Abortion in the United Kingdom is legally available through the Abortion Act 1967 in Great Britain, and the Abortion (Northern Ireland) (No.2) Regulations 2020.

In England, Scotland, and Wales, abortion is permitted on the grounds of:

• risk to the life of the pregnant woman;
• preventing grave permanent injury to her physical or mental health;
• risk of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman or any existing children of her family (up to a term limit of 24 weeks of gestation); or
• substantial risk that, if the child were born, he or she would "suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped".

The third ground is typically interpreted liberally with regards to mental health to create a de facto state of abortion on demand, and nearly all abortions—98% in 2019 and 2020—are performed to protect the woman's mental health.

In Northern Ireland, abortion is permitted on similar grounds, although the law also permits abortion in the first 12 weeks of a pregnancy for any reason, as is also the case in the rest of Ireland.

Under the UK's devolution settlements, abortion policy is devolved to the Scottish Parliament and the Northern Ireland Assembly but not to the Welsh Parliament (Senedd). Abortion was previously highly restricted in Northern Ireland although it was permitted in limited cases. In 2019, during a time when the Assembly was not operating, the UK Parliament repealed most restrictions on abortion in Northern Ireland; the current Regulations were subsequently introduced by Parliament in 2020.

Abortions which are carried out for grounds outside those permitted in law continue to be unlawful in each jurisdiction of the UK – under the Offences against the Person Act 1861 in England and Wales, Scottish common law, and the Northern Ireland Regulations. The Infant Life (Preservation) Act 1929 and the Criminal Justice Act (Northern Ireland) 1945 also outlaw child destruction outside the grounds permitted in abortion law.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_Kingdom

From
https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/20242/#post-361549

 

[RabbiO]

I don't know how to interpret that response.

Given the copious amount of news coverage at home and abroad of the SCOTUS decision I thought denoting my country would be sufficient for other members to fill in the blanks about laws. Apologies if I was too cryptic.

 

[wil]

Given the copious amount of news coverage at home and abroad of the SCOTUS decision I thought denoting my country would be sufficient for other members to fill in the blanks about laws. Apologies if I was too cryptic.

I gotcha... yeah I was clueless!

 

[Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine]

What's ironic to me is that two of the drugs used for an abortion are used to prevent a "spontaneous abortion", aka, a miscarrage. I don't know which ones, but that's not important.

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

 

[wil]

Here is the map and info on the world view and laws...

The US is the 4th country in the past 25 years to reduce abortion protection.

https://reproductiverights.org/maps/worlds-abortion-laws/

 

[Cino]

It's an interesting topic, in an interfaith context as well:

https://eu.freep.com/story/news/loc...rally-abortion-synagogue-michigan/7770470001/

Should a secular state have regulations favoring a particular set of religious views over others? (In Europe we generally have a terrible track record of separating religions from state, so the US events are being followed with interest)

 

[wil]

I think it's culturally time for us to re-frame how we think about the uterus.

It's not a nurturing organ—it doesn't need to be. A fetus is frighteningly good at getting the resources it needs to nurture itself. If they are implanted anywhere other than the womb (most often the fallopian tube, but also sometimes the bladder, intestine, pelvic muscles and connective tissue, and the liver) placental cells will rip through a body, slaughtering everything in their path as they seek out arteries to slake their hunger for nutrients.

Fetal cells will happily grow in any of these places, digesting and puncturing tissue, paralyzing and enlarging arteries, raising blood pressure to feed itself more, faster; but it will be unable to be ejected. It's no coincidence that genes involved in embryonic development have been implicated in how cancer spreads.

Rather than a soft cozy nest, a womb is a fortress designed to protect the person from the developing cells inside them.

Because of our huge and (metabolically speaking) expensive brains, human fetal development requires unrestricted access to a parent's blood supply, which makes pregnancy (and miscarriage) incredibly dangerous for the carrier. The uterus has evolved to control and restrict whether placental cells can get that access, and to eject it before it develops enough to kill the host. THE FUNCTION OF THE WOMB IS TO PROTECT THE PARENT'S LIFE. The very structure of the womb very firmly prioritizes the life of the parent over the life of the fetus.

Even with modern medical care, at least 800 people die EVERY DAY from pregnancy (and childbirth-related causes). Among developed countries, the United States has one of the highest rates of maternal mortality in the world, and Texas has one of the highest rates within that. The rate is even higher when viewed among BIPOC only.

Pregnancy may be necessary for the continuation of the species, but it is not a joke. It is a life-threatening event, a parasitic attack on a human body; just one we have romanticized and been desensitized to.

The "miracle" of birth is that we have a protective organ designed to, if all goes well, let us survive it. It doesn't always go well. It is life or death. Someone who chooses to get pregnant, stay pregnant, and carry a fetus to delivery is legitimately choosing to risk their life to do it. Nobody else has the right to make anyone do that, and nobody should be punished or vilified for not wanting to do it. Forcing someone to carry a pregnancy, ANY pregnancy, is attempted murder.

—Anonymous via UniteWomen.org

 

[RJM]

Or like a humble seed, growing quietly and mysteriously within the womb of earth, and sprouting upward, tender green, toward the light?

But these discussions have convinced me that in the 21st century no woman should be compelled to give birth. People should be free to make their own religious tribal, moral and emotional choices.

It becomes difficult when the later stages of pregnancy have to be considered. The debate will continue

 

[seattlegal]

In my state (Washington state, USA) a woman's right to choose to abort up to the point of viability is written into our State Constitution.