Gender Expression as a Fashion Trend

Discussion in 'Politics and Society' started by seattlegal, Jul 8, 2022.

  1. seattlegal

    seattlegal Mercuræn Buddhist

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    This thread is an offshoot from the Cancel Culture thread.
    https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/20256/

    Gender expression is a function of Persona (A virtual mask or societal role one adopts.)
    Following (or bucking) fashion trends also falls within the realm of Persona.

    Here is the entry of Persona from the Carl Jung Lexicon by Daryl Sharp:

    Persona. The "I," usually ideal aspects of ourselves, that we present to the outside world. The persona is . . . a functional complex that comes into existence for reasons of adaptation or personal convenience. [Ibid., par. 801.]

    The persona is that which in reality one is not, but which oneself as well as others think one is.["Concerning Rebirth," CW 9i, par. 221.]

    Originally the word persona meant a mask worn by actors to indicate the role they played. On this level, it is both a protective covering and an asset in mixing with other people. Civilized society depends on interactions between people through the persona. There are indeed people who lack a developed persona . . . blundering from one social solecism to the next, perfectly harmless and innocent, soulful bores or appealing children, or, if they are women, spectral Cassandras dreaded for their tactlessness, eternally misunderstood, never knowing what they are about, always taking forgiveness for granted, blind to the world, hopeless dreamers. From them we can see how a neglected persona works.["Anima and Animus," CW 7, par. 318.] Before the persona has been differentiated from the ego, the persona is experienced as individuality. In fact, as a social identity on the one hand and an ideal image on the other, there is little individual about it. It is, as its name implies, only a mask of the collective psyche, a mask that feigns individuality, making others and oneself believe that one is individual, whereas one is simply acting a role through which the collective psyche speaks.

    When we analyse the persona we strip off the mask, and discover that what seemed to be individual is at bottom collective; in other words, that the persona was only a mask of the collective psyche. Fundamentally the persona is nothing real: it is a compromise between individual and society as to what a man should appear to be. He takes a name, earns a title, exercises a function, he is this or that. In a certain sense all this is real, yet in relation to the essential individuality of the person concerned it is only a secondary reality, a compromise formation, in making which others often have a greater share than he. ["The Persona as a Segment of the Collective Psyche," ibid., pars. 245f.] A psychological understanding of the persona as a function of relationship to the outside world makes it possible to assume and drop one at will. But by rewarding a particular persona, the outside world invites identification with it. Money, respect and power come to those who can perform single-mindedly and well in a social role. From being a useful convenience, therefore, the persona may become a trap and a source of neurosis. A man cannot get rid of himself in favour of an artificial personality without punishment. Even the attempt to do so brings on, in all ordinary cases, unconscious reactions in the form of bad moods, affects, phobias, obsessive ideas, backsliding vices, etc. The social "strong man" is in his private life often a mere child where his own states of feeling are concerned.["Anima and Animus," ibid., par. 307. ]

    The demands of propriety and good manners are an added inducement to assume a becoming mask. What goes on behind the mask is then called "private life." This painfully familiar division of consciousness into two figures, often preposterously different, is an incisive psychological operation that is bound to have repercussions on the unconscious.[Ibid., par. 305.]

    Among the consequences of identifying with a persona are: we lose sight of who we are without a protective covering; our reactions are predetermined by collective expectations (we do and think and feel what our persona "should" do, think and feel); those close to us complain of our emotional distance; and we cannot imagine life without it.
    To the extent that ego-consciousness is identified with the persona, the neglected inner life (personified in the shadow and anima or animus) is activated in compensation. The consequences, experienced in symptoms characteristic of neurosis, can stimulate the process of individuation.

    There is, after all, something individual in the peculiar choice and delineation of the persona, and . . . despite the exclusive identity of the ego-consciousness with the persona the unconscious self, one's real individuality, is always present and makes itself felt indirectly if not directly. Although the ego-consciousness is at first identical with the persona-that compromise role in which we parade before the community-yet the unconscious self can never be repressed to the point of extinction. Its influence is chiefly manifest in the special nature of the contrasting and compensating contents of the unconscious. The purely personal attitude of the conscious mind evokes reactions on the part of the unconscious, and these, together with personal repressions, contain the seeds of individual development.[The Persona as a Segment of the Collective Psyche," ibid., par. 247.]


    Starting with the first few lines of the entry:

    The "I," usually ideal aspects of ourselves, that we present to the outside world. The persona is . . . a functional complex that comes into existence for reasons of adaptation or personal convenience. [Ibid., par. 801.]

    The persona is that which in reality one is not, but which oneself as well as others think one is.["Concerning Rebirth," CW 9i, par. 221.]

    Is there any dissent that transgender expression is a Persona function, and that the main crux of anti-transgender objections follows what is outlined as defining the Persona above, namely that "The persona is that which in reality one is not, but which oneself as well as others think one is?"

    If there is any dissent to this, please bring them to the table so we can work this out.
     
  2. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Ok. But it is the young who are most susceptible to following fashion trends as a way of fitting in and being accepted. Or as rebellion. Fashion trends by their nature are impermanent. But gender altering hormone treatment from a young age is not reversible? Many grow to regret it. Not to deny real cases of gender dysphoria?
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2022
  3. seattlegal

    seattlegal Mercuræn Buddhist

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    I'm assuming that this is referring to localized groups of young women saying they want to transition to males as a fashion trend? (From what Jordan Peterson said on his Twitter ban video.) If so, this might require some deep thinking, information gathering, and reasoning to pick through and understand in order to psychologically understand and differentiate from true gender dysphoria, instead of just heaping scorn on them as Peterson did. (Which, as a deterrent, is only as temporary as a fashion trend, and will only build hatred instead of healing.)
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2022
  4. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    And that is your opinion, to which you have the right, without being cancelled by a screaming mob (of haters) who do not share it. Freedom of expression is the issue?
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2022
  5. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    @seattlegal
    The problem seems to be that any proper debate about it has to be shouted down and silenced with accusations of transphobia etc, by the woke cancel culture SJWs. It's just my mileage ...
     
  6. seattlegal

    seattlegal Mercuræn Buddhist

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    I am willing to discuss it, investigate it and search for a solution instead of spitting poison about it. There is already plenty of hate surrounding it--no need to propagate more. I can't find a solution to it alone, however. This looks like it is going to be a difficult problem to isolate and figure out. Even Jordan Peterson, who is a trained professional psychologist, resorted to throwing shade and scorn instead of using his psychological training to investigate and pinpoint a possible cause and solution.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2022
  7. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Seems gender expression (albeit it 99% binary) has been a fashion trend all along.

    The rest it seems in the US anyway is a matter.of coming out of the closet which has expanded exponentially the past 80 years...

    Whether our lersona is based on gender, sexual prefernce, career me thinks we all wanna be "cool" (i recall somewhere that 90% of.the time socially we are trying to look good in any given situation, or ateast not look bad)




    Statement needs data. Some I will buy but have no clue what percentage we are talking.
     
  8. seattlegal

    seattlegal Mercuræn Buddhist

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  9. seattlegal

    seattlegal Mercuræn Buddhist

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    I would highly recommend finding 92 minutes of your time to watch the above video. Very informative.

    My initial thoughts that came to mind while watching the above video:

    Thinking back to my days as a young woman: one topic of conversation among "the girls" centered around developing strategies that would allow you to get breast reduction operations and/or getting your tubes tied or getting otherwise sterilized. Convincing your medical insurance to cover a breast reduction operation was really difficult. (Convincing your insurance to cover pregnancy and childbirth without buying separate insurance for that was impossible, and even if you purchased the separate maternity coverage, it did not even come close to covering the expenses involved in prenatal care and childbirth.) It was even harder to find a doctor who would agree to tie your tubes unless you already had at least five children, and almost impossible if you were childless. Heck, now you can get your breasts removed by simply saying you are nonbinary? You can have a hysterectomy simply by taking testosterone for five years? Heck yeah! Back then, young women would jump at that sort of bodily autonomy!

    I'm thinking that the bodily autonomy afforded to those seeking gender-related treatment has a wide appeal--especially since the bodily autonomy of cis-women is once again being rapidly eroded.

    The freedom from not being expected to conform to the image of the Ideal woman as dictated by society and steered by the fashion industry also holds great appeal, especially when women who conform to this ideal get called "sluts" and then get blamed for being a victim of sexual assault because of how they look! Heck yeah! "Don't stare at my breasts" is no longer an issue if you have them removed! WIN!

    I'm thinking that a large part of this trend is not "I want to be a boy," but rather, "I don't want to be a woman." (Being a girl is not so bad, but being a woman is.) This is why the classic gender dysphoria doesn't seem to neatly apply here. I'm not sure there is a proper term for this.

    These are my initial thoughts that came to mind while watching the above video. I don't know how aptly they may apply here, as these young folk are not of my generation. I hope they can productively add to the conversation here as we search for a solution.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2022
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  10. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    @seattlegal

    Thank you for posting the podcast*. Even the first 10 minutes is very informative. I wonder how many people will actually listen to it

    *It's made to be heard, more than to be watched. There are no visuals. It's just two people talking. It can be listened to as podcast without having to be sitting down watching the video ...

    (I've listened to the full podcast. Whew! So important. Thanks again for posting it)
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2022
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  11. seattlegal

    seattlegal Mercuræn Buddhist

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    The thread of contagious self-harmful actions mentioned in the podcast also seems to confirm the "I don't want to want to be this {a woman}" theme as compared to the "I want to be this {a man}" theme that one might see in the more classic gender dysphoria. It's more about turning away from becoming a woman than it is about embracing becoming a man. (Being regretful of their choice to become a man later would also follow this pattern. They didn't want to be a man. They just didn't want to be a woman. Two-spirits and other such terms would fit in with not being a man or a woman.)
     
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  12. seattlegal

    seattlegal Mercuræn Buddhist

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    Question: are people still pushing young girls to have dolls and such in an effort to build excitement for them to become a mother and have real children? I know my mother tried to get me to play with dolls when I was young, but I just wasn't interested. She even resorted to trying to force me to play with a baby doll for a minimum amount of time. (She also made me go play in the dirt and get extra dirty before bath time. I had way more fun playing in the dirt (identifying different types of rocks, bugs, plant roots, etc I'd find in the dirt was way more entertaining than playing with a doll.)
     
  13. Namaste Jesus

    Namaste Jesus Praise the Lord and Enjoy the Chai Moderator

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    Normal hetero male, but I love dolls. Always have. I still have quite the collection, all the way from 2" to life size! Grew up with 3 older sisters, dolls were just part of life at our house. No baby dolls though. Mom just didn't like the idea of seeing kids with babies, so she never got any for them.

    Anyway, my sisters all lost interest in dolls in their early teens, but I stayed utterly fascinated by them. Didn't get any of my own though, until much later in life. Well, aside from GI Joe, but heaven forbid they should be called dolls. I don't think my mom even knew I was interested in dolls. She just thought I played with them to please my sisters and later my nieces. Wasn't until they grew up and stopped playing with dolls, I got my own.

    Now the wife never got into dolls. Just wasn't a thing in her country growing up. Seemed odd to me none of the kids had dolls. So after marrying we took some over for her young nieces. They absolutely loved them. I still remember the look on the wife's 2 year old nieces face when we handed her a "My Kid Sister" doll. Man she gave that thing a bear hug and wouldn't let go! After that, my mom-in-law wanted one!
     
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  14. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Twitter and tiktok represent the age with their abbreviated 'soundbite' format. The depth and details are ignored. People don't have the patience to listen to the full argument. That is the value of these extended, in depth podcasts that were originally pioneered by Joe Rogan.

    Thinking is hard. It requires attention and perseverance. People just get off at the first stop, and that is their cast-iron opinion. It's not easy to be truly open-minded, and grow and change with new information, imo
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2022
  15. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    LOL, my beloved has campaigned against all isms for as long as I can remember. Our daughters grew up with dolls, cars, trainsets, pushchairs, chemistry sets, a children's lathe (utter rubbish) ... grown up with their own kids now, they tease their mum, but she still campaigns on! Female action figures for all our g-kids (she collects them), multi-ethnic faces in storybooks (few and far between) ... Just last week, at a story-telling in a local library with our grandson:

    "... and they went to see a doctor, and he said—"
    "Excuse me, but could the doctor have been a she?"
    "Sorry?" From the storyteller (a woman).
    "The doctor could have been a woman," having noted that most of the kids gathered round were girls, and generally people assume a doctor is male.
    "Well, yes," said the flustered storyteller. "I mean, the doctor could have been a dog!"
    At which point she subsided, having made her point, and the storyteller completely missed it.

    So in answer to @seattlegal's question about stereotypes ... yes, sadly, they do.
     
  16. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    All that stereotype debate is no excuse for 'activist' medics encouraging testosterone therapy and double mastectomy for girls as young as 15yrs imo
    Interesting observation

    I agree with Peterson the chickens will start coming home to roost once these gender transforming teenage girls get into the middle twenties and start regretting it, and begin to sue these doctors and counsellors
     
  17. 'Amir Alzzalam

    'Amir Alzzalam Šayṭānist

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  18. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    For balance
    Blair White
    The happy transition

    It's clear this is genuine gender dysphoria at a young age, and it happened 8 yrs ago at a time when there was proper medical judgement and counselling throughout, imo

    13 min

     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2022
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  19. Namaste Jesus

    Namaste Jesus Praise the Lord and Enjoy the Chai Moderator

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    Just to be safe, better make that a trans-gender, cross dressing dog. Of course you still run the risk of offending cats... :rolleyes:
     
  20. seattlegal

    seattlegal Mercuræn Buddhist

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    I have absolutely no problem with allowing girls that young (15 years old) to have their breasts removed. All of the women I know who have had breast reduction operations have had no regrets throughout their lifetimes and always express that they are happy they did it. This fits into the I don't want to be a woman paradigm that seems to be more prevalent among these young people, and the rate of later regret for breast reduction is quite low.

    When it comes to testosterone therapy, I would like to see some counseling first. This part of the conversion therapy corresponds to the I want to be a man paradigm, that many seem to later regret. Testosterone is one of those hormones that some people of any gender may abuse.

    I would certainly recommend lots of prior in-depth counseling for those requesting the neophallic procedure.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2022

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