Try the Trinity.

[Thomas]

No .. they are not misdirected.

Well they're not directed at orthodox Christian Trinitarianism, that seems clear to me.

The Qur'an makes that clear .. the term "one of three" refers to a trinity.

The Qur'an makes it clear that "one of three" Gods is condemned, with which we agree. It says nothing about One God, three persons, which suggests it wasn't addressing the orthodox doctrine.

The complex theology of the trinity that evolved is condemned.

I would have thought, if the orthodox doctrine was being condemned, the Qur'an would not be so ambiguous as to condemn that which we do not say, that's the point, it seems to me.

The "one of three" of the Qur'an refutes tritheism, as we do.

 

[RJM]

O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three". Cease! (it is) better for you! Allah is only One God. Far is it removed from His transcendent majesty that he should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender.
- Qur'an Women -

..and as I have already pointed out, 'son' in this context means partner in God's Sovereignty

Thank you

Surah An-Nisa - 171 - Quran.com

يا اهل الكتاب لا تغلوا في دينكم ولا تقولوا على الله الا الحق انما المسيح عيسى ابن مريم رسول الله وكلمته القاها الى مريم وروح منه فامنوا بالله ورسله ول...

quran.com

The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three".

This is the whole issue. Christians believe Jesus Christ is far more than only a messenger -- that He is the Incarnation. His whole life and death and resurrection ARE his message. You can believe if you want that the Quran is the final, complete, eternal and inerrant word of Allah -- that is your right, take your choice and good luck with it. But Christians don't believe that.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I would have thought, if the orthodox doctrine was being condemned, the Qur'an would not be so ambiguous as to condemn that which we do not say, that's the point, it seems to me..

Well, you know that one has to take the whole of the Bible, and not just one or two verses to understand it.
The same with the Qur'an .. it makes it clear that no person is God.

..but I think I understand you. Christians have different ways of understanding God
and the trinity.
..and also salvation, come to that.

 

[muhammad_isa]

This is the whole issue. Christians believe Jesus Christ is far more than only a messenger -- that He is the Incarnation. His whole life and death and resurrection ARE his message. You can believe if you want to that the Quran is the final, complete, eternal and inerrant word of Allah -- that is your right, take your choice and good luck with it. But Christians don't believe that.

I know .. the vast majority of Christians believe as you say.
Nevertheless, we still have much in common.

 

[RJM]

I know .. the vast majority of Christians believe as you say.
Nevertheless, we still have much in common.

They choose (to believe) the testimony of their own scripture? Rather than another?

 

[muhammad_isa]

They choose (to believe) the testimony of their own scripture? Rather than another?

Mmm .. Jews do the same.

..and God knows best.
Of course, all scripture is supposed to be for our benefit,
rather than divide us or send us astray.

 

[Faithfulservant]

I'm just going to be blunt. Can I be blunt? I think I can because you have been.

Most bible believing Christians don't recognize the Quran as Holy scripture. In fact most believe that Allah is a false God. Any religion that denies Jesus Christ as God we consider a false religion. Any prophet that teaches contrary to the word of God as Jesus is God is a false prophet. Anything other than the gospel of Jesus Christ being God as written in the word of God is a false gospel. We are warned extensively in the epistles that this is antichrist.

That doesn't stop us from loving the lost and praying for their salvation. We would tell someone standing in the middle of a train track that a train is approaching quickly. Because we love.

This is very intolerant. I know this. The path to salvation is narrow and the road to destruction is wide and many will fall by the wayside.

I believe that you know this already so either you are trying to spread your message to what you consider the lost (which I thank you for) or you genuinely are trying to reason out what you consider as contradiction in the two texts.. which I don't believe because you aren't really listening to what is being said!

Regardless. This is an interfaith dialogue that's been beat to death because both sides are absolutely intractable.

 

[RJM]

O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three". Cease! (it is) better for you! Allah is only One God. Far is it removed from His transcendent majesty that he should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender.
- Qur'an Women -

..and as I have already pointed out, 'son' in this context means partner in God's Sovereignty.

So who is the Father of Jesus? Mary was a virgin, according to Islam?

 

[RJM]

Only a messenger? The Quran says Jesus breathed life into clay birds. Which other prophet created life from clay? As God created Adam from clay?

 

[RJM]

Only God has the power to create. So God gave Jesus the power to be God?

God does not share power or have a Son?

 

[muhammad_isa]

So who is the Father of Jesus? Mary was a virgin, according to Islam?

..so it was a miracle? Jesus had no biological father.

 

[RJM]

..so it was a miracle? Jesus had no biological father.

Allah has not a son. Who is the father of Jesus?

 

[muhammad_isa]

So God gave Jesus the power to be God?

Yes, Jesus performed miracles through 'the Father'.

"I create for you out of clay the likeness of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird with God’s permission." (Quran 3:49)

 

[RJM]

Yes, Jesus performed miracles through 'the Father'.

"I create for you out of clay the likeness of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird with God’s permission." (Quran 3:49)

But the Qur'an says only Allah has the power to create? So if Allah gave Jesus the power to create, he made Jesus God?

 

[muhammad_isa]

But the Qur'an says only Allah has the power to create? So if Allah gave Jesus the power to create, he made Jesus God?

Muhammad, peace be with him, split the moon..
Does that make him "God" ? No. Miracles only happen by God's permission.

 

[RJM]

Muhammad, peace be with him, split the moon..
Does that make him "God" ? No. Miracles only happen by God's permission.

Other prophets did stuff. But only Allah has power to create. Jesus is still alive with Allah. He created clay birds to life. Perhaps they are still flying around. Has Jesus now lost the power to create life from clay that Allah gave to Him? The power to create that God alone possesses?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Jesus is still alive with Allah.

Yes, I believe that..

Has Jesus now lost the power to create life from clay that Allah gave to Him?

I don't know that Jesus had that power continually.
I do believe that Jesus performed many miracles.

16 “The one who listens to you listens to Me, and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me.”
- Luke 10 -

 

[RJM]

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

corpus.quran.com

Pickthall: O mankind! A similitude is coined, so pay ye heed to it: Lo! those on whom ye call beside Allah will never create a fly though they combine together for the purpose. And if the fly took something from them, they could not rescue it from it. So weak are (both) the seeker and the sought!

In the Quran, Jesus created birds from clay. Jesus has power to create life? But the Quran says NO-ONE beside Allah (God) can create life? Are there not people who do call on Jesus?

(edited)

 

[RJM]

Miracles only happen by God's permission.

All sorts of sorcerers and jinns also perform magic tricks. I'm not saying it applies to what you said above -- but satan also gives power to do magic tricks? However Allah ALONE has the power to create life?

 

[muhammad_isa]

In the Quran, Jesus created birds from clay. Jesus has power to create life?

Nobody has power to do anything without God's permission.
In other words, the power is with God.