The Metaphysical Body

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by DT Strain, Feb 4, 2005.

  1. DT Strain

    DT Strain Spiritual Naturalist

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    Blue,

    What do you think of the term "nation" or "company"? Are these terms useless and not worth saying? After all, we know that a nation is a collection of people with a certain sort of relationship to each other, so why have the term or the concept?

    To continue this analogy, you would be saying, "Where is this nation you speak of? What proof do you have that there are nations?" When I reply that this is simply the name for a set of relationships, not an "entity" that exists out there that can be proven to exist, you would be responding, "If it's just relationships between individuals pitching in money to build things and defending one another and passing laws, then why even make up a term?"

    I hope this analogy helps to illustrate how identifying concepts of relationships of parts can be useful. This is why I think, when we think of the relationship of our decision-making faculties to the matter around us (both in our ability to affect it and detect it), that it may be useful to focus on this concept in some contexts, and that having a name for it would then also be useful (i.e. the metaphysical body).
     
  2. Blue

    Blue Member

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    Vajradhara,

    Thanks for the comments.

    Re: Conscious/ness -

    If one has an awareness of one's environment and one's own existence, sensations, and thoughts, we can be said to be 'conscious'. We are mentally perceptive or alert; we are awake.
    We are capable of thought, will, or perception.
    If we intentionally conceive of or do something, we can claim to be acting consciously and deliberately.
    If we are inwardly attentive or sensible and mindful. we are being 'conscious'.

    Consciousness is therefore a state of being which is the opposite of dead, inactive.

    Consciousness is therefore an attribute of life itself.

    Human beings specifically, but other animals too, have the faculty of self-regard. It is fairly safe to assume a lump of rock doesn't.

    Any distinctions drawn, in my opinion, are determined by all the above. An human being which is brain dead.... in not 'conscious'.
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    DTStrain,

    I do not see the relelvance of your comments about 'nation' and 'company'. You use the terms and define them very well.

    I also agree with the thesis that understanding of parts is as important as understanding 'wholes'... the gestalts.

    I do not see either of these as explaining a term like 'metaphysical body' or your previous comments about that term.
     
  3. Blue

    Blue Member

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    DTStrain,

    Is it not the case that the 'metaphysical' is that which is of or relating to the transcendent or to a reality beyond what is perceptible to the senses? (Something that could even be described as super - natural?)
    Even in common usage it is a term to indicate something which is highly abstract or abstruse... Or at the least, theoretical.

    BODY on the other hand, as you have used, it seems to refer to an actual 'body'... not some affectively conceived entity; a physicially conceived objectivity.

    Is that not a contradiction in your linking of the two words?

    It is to me, and all our exchanges seem to hinge upon this contradiction.

    A body-individual, -social or -politic, is similarly capable of objective and clear definition.

    Extended influences over others through actions and language is hardly 'metaphysical'. Even sensing another's possible innermost feelings is not evidence of a 'metaphysical body'.
    There is no evidence that I know of to substantiate a claim for a 'metaphysical body'.
    It only exists as an aspect of your metaphysical conceptualisations throughout this thread, which is fine perhaps, but not pertinent as things seem to be in actuality.
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    The concepts of 'nation' or 'company' are amenable to objective considerations and analysis.... they are NOT metaphysical, as your discussion below illustrated very well.
     
  4. DT Strain

    DT Strain Spiritual Naturalist

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    Blue,

    That seems to be where the confusion here lies. No, it is not the case that "metaphysical" refers only to "transcendent or to a reality beyond what is perceptible to the senses". This is a misperception some may have though, and probably why you don't see how my descriptions of "company" and "nation" are relevant. Not only are they relevant to my concept of the metaphysical body, not only are they analogous, but they are the same exact type of concept.

    All of this about, relating to the supernatural, the definition of metaphysical, and my use of these words, I took great care to explain thoroughly in the very first post on this thread. Please read the "disclaimer" section at the beginning of this threads first post.

    After doing so, see the following from Merriam-Webster online. It is definition #3 which I am using. Some people are unaware and think of only #2, but this is only one subcategory of what would fall under the definition. So, yes, companies and nations are metaphysical abstracts - they cannot be placed on a scale or observed directly like a physical object.

    -------------------------------------------
    Main Entry: meta·phys·i·cal [​IMG]
    Pronunciation: -'fi-zi-k&l
    Function: adjective
    1 : of or relating to metaphysics
    2 a : of or relating to the transcendent or to a reality beyond what is perceptible to the senses b : [size=-1]SUPERNATURAL[/size]
    3 : highly abstract or abstruse; also : [size=-1]THEORETICAL[/size]
    4 often capitalized : of or relating to poetry especially of the early 17th century that is highly intellectual and philosophical and marked by unconventional imagery
    - meta·phys·i·cal·ly [​IMG] /-k(&-)lE/ adverb
     
  5. Blue

    Blue Member

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    Exactly my point, DTS.

    Good to see an American dictionary agreeing with me and ours over here. ;)
     
  6. Vajradhara

    Vajradhara One of Many

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    Namaste Blue,

    thank you for the post.

    sorry for the delay.. i've been considering what you've written. is that odd for online dialog?

    fair enough. what is it that perceives these sensations of thought or perceptions? if a being is blind, do photons still strike it's retinas? can it really said to be "seeing" at that time?

    i may not be understanding what you are saying, so i'd like to sum up if i may. please correct me where i've misunderstood.

    it seems that you are thus far defining consciousness in terms of actions or sensations, by analogy perhaps? this seems rather like inference, correct? rather than the subject.

    however, when one is inactive, one is not, necessarily, dead. would you say that a being that is asleep is "unconscious"? if that is so, how about the different dream states? are they levels or forms of un-consciousness?

    this seems to be a logical fallacy that you have comitted, which is known as Modus Ponens, Affirming the Consequent :
    http://www.fallacyfiles.org/afthecon.html

    i realize that this bit was directed to DT STrain, i hope that you will not mind my comment.

    as i somehow didn't quite post correctly before (i'm looking forward to the server move) here is how the dictonary defined "metaphyics"

    Main Entry: meta·phys·ic [​IMG]
    Pronunciation: "me-t&-'fi-zik
    Function: noun
    Etymology: Middle English metaphesyk, from Medieval Latin metaphysica
    1 a : [size=-1]METAPHYSICS[/size] b : a particular system of metaphysics
    2 : the system of principles underlying a particular study or subject : [size=-1]PHILOSOPHY [/size]3b
    - metaphysic adjective

    i think that the "metaphysical" body is using a definition of #2, in the sense of an underlying principle or system. in the Buddhist context, there are a few varying views.. one of which seems quite popular is of the chakra system. perhaps you've heard of this?

    in any case, our word for this isn't really "metaphysics" it's "Abidharma" so it sounds a bit strange to hear it translated as metaphysics.. but.. that's what English uses.. so there you have it :)
     
  7. DT Strain

    DT Strain Spiritual Naturalist

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    So you agree that definition #3 shows that companies and nations are metaphysical abstracts? If so, then you can see why I use the term metaphysical regarding my concept of relationships of matter surrounding us to our decision-making.
     

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