Something wrong with Christianity?

[juantoo3]

Nothing to do with it? So a person could murder, commit adultery, curse God, lie, covet, etc. because they aren't supposed to follow the "lesser covenant"? Christians aren't supposed to have anything to do with the OT, so I guess let's eat some shellfish and start sacrificing babies!

My "liberal" (bet you didn't see that coming, did you Wil?) interpretation, is that the Levitical Laws were intended to liberate the 12 tribes from the confusion of the teachings surrounding them, even to distance their religious practice from those of Egypt. (Although there are other interpretations extant that emphasize the Egyptian connection.) Over time instead of liberating, the Laws became interpreted as restricting. It was as much about "frame of mind," of binding instead of loosening. Jesus clarified that for common folk, and removed the chains. The Levitical Priesthood had become, with exceptions, monolithic and demanding. Certain aspects particularly regarding Political necessity almost demand some authority, but as so often in history that necessity became overly-inflated and even abused (I would say particularly after the Babylonian captivity).

Jesus peeled away that human derived authority and placed it back with G!d where it always should have been. No longer did a miserable wretch like me have to go through a human authority to reach out to G!d, because of Jesus people now had the opportunity to plug in directly to the Source. This is as it always was and should have been, the seeming contradiction being that human authority usurped G!d's authority and Jesus exposed it. No doubt that played into why the Sanhedrin wanted Jesus out of the way, he threatened their authority.

I have the same reservations regarding Catholic confession (as Solomon reminds, some things never change) - I answer to no human. I answer to G!d, and G!d alone. I submit to human authority those humanly necessary matters, but in matters of my soul and my conscience I answer to no human, and any human that demands my submission in matters of spirit will meet stiff resistance on my part.

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[wil]

I have had a nagging interest in the 12 tribes for a couple decades...just not the researcher thar Juans and Thomases are.

The ties that bind set us free is another religious and lawful notion I have struggled with.

G!d n G!d alone...the middle man tries to intefere...but can't block gravity.

 

[juantoo3]

I have had a nagging interest in the 12 tribes for a couple decades...

That is another rabbit hole that would demand a thread by itself. And curiously I very seldom see reference in Christianity, no doubt because of the common misperception that the Old Testament is irrelevant because of Jesus. Not so. Jesus taught from the Old Testament, as did all of the Apostles including Paul. The Old Testament clears up a lot of New Testament confusion.

 

[Thomas]

I have the same reservations regarding Catholic confession ...

I can sympathise with that.

 

[Faithfulservant]

@juantoo3 the laws of the land are like that too.. a law is made and everyone interprets it differently some even to extremes. I think Jesus addressing it as all are summed up in two answered that but there are still people that are more comfortable with following the extreme laws which is why Paul said not to be divisive about it that one must be convicted. Divisiveness being the worst scenerio

 

[juantoo3]

@Thomas It is one thing to seek counsel, quite another to demand submission

 

[juantoo3]

the laws of the land are like that too.. a law is made and everyone interprets it differently some even to extremes. I think Jesus addressing it as all are summed up in two answered that but there are still people that are more comfortable with following the extreme laws which is why Paul said not to be divisive about it that one must be convicted. Divisiveness being the worst scenerio

I get into trouble because I am a "spirit of the law" person, not a "letter of the law" person.

Forgive, that ye may be forgiven. The first person we need to learn to forgive is ourselves.

I can look at the laws, even the Levitical Laws, and learn. Even if what I learn has no direct application to my life, I can still get the general gist of what is intended.

I have the liberty as a Gentile under Noahide Law to be a "spirit of the law" person, free to examine from a peripheral vantage, but at the same time I am sympathetic to the meaning behind it all. It is all still relevant, it is all still the Word of G!d.

The Word of G!d speaks to me, as Thomas pointed out very recently, it isn't always the text. What does Spirit lead one to understand?

It can be tough slogging through Deuteronomy, or Judges, or Kings. There are gems of understanding that Spirit can make known to a seeker of Truth. But yes, the condensed version boils down to the 2 commands Jesus provided, and Ecclesiastes says no different:

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

It is almost like Jesus was quoting (the gist of) Ecclesiastes...

 

[Faithfulservant]

I get into trouble because I am a "spirit of the law" person, not a "letter of the law" person.

Forgive, that ye may be forgiven. The first person we need to learn to forgive is ourselves.

I can look at the laws, even the Levitical Laws, and learn. Even if what I learn has no direct application to my life, I can still get the general gist of what is intended.

I have the liberty as a Gentile under Noahide Law to be a "spirit of the law" person, free to examine from a peripheral vantage, but at the same time I am sympathetic to the meaning behind it all. It is all still relevant, it is all still the Word of G!d.

The Word of G!d speaks to me, as Thomas pointed out very recently, it isn't always the text. What does Spirit lead one to understand?

It can be tough slogging through Deuteronomy, or Judges, or Kings. But there are gems of understanding that Spirit can make known to a seeker of Truth. But yes, the condensed version boils down to the 2 commands Jesus provided, and Ecclesiastes says no different:



It is almost like Jesus was quoting (the gist of) Ecclesiastes...

I also recognize that laws are made to protect us. I can look at every single one and see the intent behind it as a means of protection. Maybe that's the Spirit of the Law?

 

[wil]

I can sympathise with that.

@Thomas It is one thing to seek counsel, quite another to demand submission

My thought is...if you go to the barber you are gonna get a haircut.

But it is true they aren't the only barber in town (if they are you are SOL)

Tis why we have so many denominations eh?

 

[juantoo3]

Tis why we have so many denominations eh?

Yes, but it goes so much further than that.

Allowing that any truly, undisputedly evil persons in the world make up a fraction of a percent, there are 8 billion and counting "denominations" out there, all basically decent human beings trying the best they know how with the life they've been born into, and all have to deal with the ineffable unknown in terms that make sense to each...as it has been since humans realized this unknown exists.

I don't know if this...I can't even refer as a being...is a force, or is cognitive in the sense we are inclined to think, or a fundamental / foundational structure (Higg's Boson?) upon which reality is built, but humanity has been connecting with it we know for well over 50 thousand years. We don't know why or how it works but we know it works. Jewish Kabala is not in conflict, merely more refined, and also cogently explains Angels. This may be a tangent not all are prepared to hear, and that's fine, set it aside for another day.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Yes, but it goes so much further than that.

Allowing that any truly, undisputedly evil persons in the world make up a fraction of a percent, there are 8 billion and counting "denominations" out there, all basically decent human beings trying the best they know how with the life they've been born into, and all have to deal with the ineffable unknown in terms that make sense to each...as it has been since humans realized this unknown exists.

I don't see it like that..
I see religious denominations in terms of social structure and authority.

What a person believes, is intertwined with their experiences and environment.
..and most importantly, the intention behind their actions.

 

[juantoo3]

I don't see it like that..
I see religious denominations in terms of social structure and authority.

What a person believes, is intertwined with their experiences and environment.
..and most importantly, the intention behind their actions.

Fair enough, but I interpret what you say here to agree with what I wrote. At no point did I disinclude culture, society or authority, let alone experience. All of these play a role, but does not negate that each individual will account for themselves, each individual will interpret for themselves. No two people will be absolutely in lock step because no two individuals will have exactly / precisely the same inputs...and this does not even account for organic differences within the cranial computer.

 

[wil]

I see religious denominations in terms of social structure and authority.

And if you disagree with an unlovable social structure and ahthority...folks splinter, move on, a d create a new one.

 

[juantoo3]

And if you disagree with a ... social structure and authority...folks splinter, move on, and create a new one.

pretty much, yeah

 

[muhammad_isa]

..No two people will be absolutely in lock step because no two individuals will have exactly / precisely the same inputs...and this does not even account for organic differences within the cranial computer.

Mmm .. but religious denomination is more about community, and not the individual.

 

[Faithfulservant]

Mmm .. but religious denomination is more about community, and not the individual.

Maybe to a point. Here in Texas we are in what is known as the bible belt. There are literally churches on every block from any given denomination. Im very specific about what church I attend. They have to teach through the bible it's called expository teaching.. every book is taught all the way through so you get it in context. Topical sermons they flip around and teach on any given topic but you can never be assured that you are getting through the bible and scripture is in context. Next would be worship and prayer.. both are important. And first and foremost I find out what their statement of faith is and if the believe all the things that I believe are necessary for salvation.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Maybe to a point. Here in Texas we are in what is known as the bible belt. There are literally churches on every block from any given denomination. Im very specific about what church I attend.

Mmm .. I'm pretty fed up with schism..
Most of the issues that cause division are not revolutionary.

They have to teach through the bible it's called expository teaching.. every book is taught all the way through so you get it in context.

The JW's do that too .. they just have a different take..

And first and foremost I find out what their statement of faith is and if the believe all the things that I believe are necessary for salvation.

..but doesn't it become circular?
Where do we get our dogma [tenets of belief] from in the first place?

 

[juantoo3]

Mmm .. but religious denomination is more about community, and not the individual.

In the strict, formal sense you are correct.

I am not incorrect, I was using the term in an informal, ersatz, subjective sense. Hence the quotation marks to set it aside from the usual definition.

Every denomination begins with an individual insight that others buy into.

 

[Faithfulservant]

Mmm .. I'm pretty fed up with schism..
Most of the issues that cause division are not revolutionary.


The JW's do that too .. they just have a different take..


..but doesn't it become circular?
Where do we get our dogma [tenets of belief] from in the first place

Much like Islam?

I wasn't aware of how JWs study their bible as it's been rewritten to conform to their doctrine.

Most bible believing Christians get their dogmas or tenets of belief from scripture.

 

[moralorel]

My "liberal" (bet you didn't see that coming, did you Wil?) interpretation, is that the Levitical Laws were intended to liberate the 12 tribes from the confusion of the teachings surrounding them, even to distance their religious practice from those of Egypt. (Although there are other interpretations extant that emphasize the Egyptian connection.) Over time instead of liberating, the Laws became interpreted as restricting. It was as much about "frame of mind," of binding instead of loosening. Jesus clarified that for common folk, and removed the chains. The Levitical Priesthood had become, with exceptions, monolithic and demanding. Certain aspects particularly regarding Political necessity almost demand some authority, but as so often in history that necessity became overly-inflated and even abused (I would say particularly after the Babylonian captivity).

Jesus peeled away that human derived authority and placed it back with G!d where it always should have been. No longer did a miserable wretch like me have to go through a human authority to reach out to G!d, because of Jesus people now had the opportunity to plug in directly to the Source. This is as it always was and should have been, the seeming contradiction being that human authority usurped G!d's authority and Jesus exposed it. No doubt that played into why the Sanhedrin wanted Jesus out of the way, he threatened their authority.

I have the same reservations regarding Catholic confession (as Solomon reminds, some things never change) - I answer to no human. I answer to G!d, and G!d alone. I submit to human authority those humanly necessary matters, but in matters of my soul and my conscience I answer to no human, and any human that demands my submission in matters of spirit will meet stiff resistance on my part.

Sooooo that large statue of Baal that is in my Etsy cart, should I not buy it? Can't do child sacrifice without it.