The Mystery of God’s Will Unfolding in this Matrix

Tony Bristow-Stagg

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The concept that God is unknowable, Almighty, beyond our understanding and comprehensive capacity is embraced by many people of many Faiths.

The concept that God sends Messengers to impart His Will to humanity has been a concept that has been given from around the AD 622 with the Message given by Muhammad in the Quran.

Observation of the God given Message indicates to us that God does not compel us to embrace the given Messengers, that it is a choice we get to make. Also using logic and reason we can also see how the given Message unfolds over time, and how the warnings given in those Messages also become manifest over time and become and undisputed proof to those that embrace the Messengers.

I offer an Example of this process from what Baha'u'llah offered to Pope Pius IX in the mid 1800's.

The Monks were addressed by God in this Message as follows.

"....Say: O concourse of monks! Seclude not yourselves in your churches and cloisters. Come ye out of them by My leave, and busy, then, yourselves with what will profit you and others. Thus commandeth you He Who is the Lord of the Day of Reckoning. Seclude yourselves in the stronghold of My love. This, truly, is the seclusion that befitteth you, could ye but know it. He that secludeth himself in his house is indeed as one dead. It behoveth man to show forth that which will benefit mankind. He that bringeth forth no fruit is fit for the fire. Thus admonisheth you your Lord; He, verily, is the Mighty, the Bountiful. Enter ye into wedlock, that after you another may arise in your stead. We, verily, have forbidden you lechery, and not that which is conducive to fidelity. Have ye clung unto the promptings of your nature, and cast behind your backs the statutes of God? Fear ye God, and be not of the foolish. But for man, who, on My earth, would remember Me, and how could My attributes and My names be revealed? Reflect, and be not of them that have shut themselves out as by a veil from Him, and were of those that are fast asleep. He that married not could find no place wherein to abide, nor where to lay His head, by reason of what the hands of the treacherous had wrought. His holiness consisted not in the things ye have believed and imagined, but rather in the things which belong unto Us. Ask, that ye may be made aware of His station which hath been exalted above the vain imaginings of all the peoples of the earth. Blessed are they that understand...."

This is given without compulsion, every Monk can read this and accept if it is from God or it is not. Yet now it is recorded, God knows all and this was not embraced by the Monks.

Fast forward and hindsight is now our most logical tool. We can ask how wise those commands were when we look at the controversy that has plagued the Church over the last 40 or so years. All could have been different, the Monks could have married.

This is but one example. There are many.

Regards Tony
 
We can ask how wise those commands were when we look at the controversy that has plagued the Church over the last 40 or so years. All could have been different, the Monks could have married
What about Buddhist monks and Hindu sadhus?

Are you implying that all monks are paedophiles? Or that there are no married paedophiles?

The very purpose of the contemplative life is to be free of wordily distractions and attachments, in order to focus the life and mind wholly upon God, as the first commandment. It is not the life for everyone, and not many choose it. Jesus was not married, and neither was John the Baptist.

I find no wisdom in Baha'u'lla's letter? I think it's a very silly letter.

Why don't you stop condemning other's beliefs, particularly Christian beliefs @Tony Bristow-Stagg?
 
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Why don't you stop condemning other's beliefs, particularly Christian beliefs @Tony Bristow-Stagg?
You missed the point of the discussion. Baha'u'llah thanks the Monks for their service to God, before offering this.

I have not condemned any persons belief, I am sharing a Message given by God.

One can find these same types of statements made by Jesus.

Regards Tony
 
Stay away from this OP, agree to disagree.

@Tony Bristow-Stagg

Have you ever met a monk, or spent silent time on a monastic retreat?

How dare you come in here as a soapbox to condemn the religious beliefs of others while pretending to include all other beliefs?

Go back to the NT and read how Christ condemns religious hypocrites
 
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Go back to the NT and read how Christ condemns religious hypocrites
If I did, it would be only offered it is taken out of context. So far, all your protests just demand that the Bible be seen through your, or other orthodox eyes. Luckily, there is no longer any power for the Church to impart those as infallible views and I personally see clarity in other explanations, to which I share.

The logic in the OP post has not been addressed. Maybe you are supporting the rape of nuns and of children, and unlawful adoptions of children resulting from these atrocious acts from some that chose a monastic lifestyle. Many of these events now being brought to light by investigative journalism. Maybe that is the hypocrisy warned about in the Bible, not valid alternative views.

Regards Tony
 
The logic in the OP post has not been addressed. Maybe you are supporting the rape of nuns and of children, and unlawful adoptions of children resulting from these atrocious acts from some that chose a monastic lifestyle. Many of these events now being brought to light by investigative journalism. Maybe that is the hypocrisy warned about in the Bible, not valid alternative views
Do you think this is the majority behaviour? That's the logic of your OP. It's a very small percentage. Jesus was unmarried. Have you ever met a monk or nun, or spent time on a monastery retreat? Does child abuse never occur outside the monastic life? What about Buddhist and other monks? Did Baha'u'llah write to the Dalai Lama?
 
The concept that God is unknowable, Almighty, beyond our understanding and comprehensive capacity is embraced by many people of many Faiths.
A fundamental aspect of universal metaphysics that's expressed in all the great traditions.

The concept that God sends Messengers to impart His Will to humanity has been a concept that has been given from around the AD 622 with the Message given by Muhammad in the Quran.
Hmmm ... not so sure. Prophecy pre-dates the emergence of Islam. The Messenger/Prophet is there is Judaism, it's there in the Oracles of Antiquity.

The idea of 'progressive revelation' is actually not metaphysical at all, in fact metaphysics regards it as a categorical error.

Observation of the God given Message indicates to us that God does not compel us to embrace the given Messengers, that it is a choice we get to make.
Again, not so sure. Yes, we get to make choices, but when the Eternal speaks, it does so from Eternity. The message does not change, decay nor reach a 'logical limit'.

Also using logic and reason we can also see how the given Message unfolds over time ...
Human logic and reason – a relative and conditional mode of thinking misapplied to the Absolute and the Boundless.

The Sacra Doctrina of the world are inexhaustible wellsprings of spiritual nourishment, and offer access to the Transcendent and Union with the Absolute – the Real and the True – as the Scripture says, "There's nothing new under the sun".
 
The sort of anti-Catholic propaganda forwarded by @Tony Bristow-Stagg is why monks and priests are afraid to go out in public wearing their habit, for fear of verbal and even physical abuse, imo

How many Baha'i are there working with lepers in Zimbabwe and other difficult and dangerous places?

Bradbourne.jpg
https://www.johnbradburne.com/
 
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The BA course director was attacked in the street for that very reason – he's a priest, ego he's a pervert ...
 
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The concept that God is unknowable, Almighty, beyond our understanding and comprehensive capacity is embraced by many people of many Faiths.

The concept that God sends Messengers to impart His Will to humanity has been a concept that has been given from around the AD 622 with the Message given by Muhammad in the Quran.

Observation of the God given Message indicates to us that God does not compel us to embrace the given Messengers, that it is a choice we get to make. Also using logic and reason we can also see how the given Message unfolds over time, and how the warnings given in those Messages also become manifest over time and become and undisputed proof to those that embrace the Messengers.

I offer an Example of this process from what Baha'u'llah offered to Pope Pius IX in the mid 1800's.

The Monks were addressed by God in this Message as follows.

"....Say: O concourse of monks! Seclude not yourselves in your churches and cloisters. Come ye out of them by My leave, and busy, then, yourselves with what will profit you and others. Thus commandeth you He Who is the Lord of the Day of Reckoning. Seclude yourselves in the stronghold of My love. This, truly, is the seclusion that befitteth you, could ye but know it. He that secludeth himself in his house is indeed as one dead. It behoveth man to show forth that which will benefit mankind. He that bringeth forth no fruit is fit for the fire. Thus admonisheth you your Lord; He, verily, is the Mighty, the Bountiful. Enter ye into wedlock, that after you another may arise in your stead. We, verily, have forbidden you lechery, and not that which is conducive to fidelity. Have ye clung unto the promptings of your nature, and cast behind your backs the statutes of God? Fear ye God, and be not of the foolish. But for man, who, on My earth, would remember Me, and how could My attributes and My names be revealed? Reflect, and be not of them that have shut themselves out as by a veil from Him, and were of those that are fast asleep. He that married not could find no place wherein to abide, nor where to lay His head, by reason of what the hands of the treacherous had wrought. His holiness consisted not in the things ye have believed and imagined, but rather in the things which belong unto Us. Ask, that ye may be made aware of His station which hath been exalted above the vain imaginings of all the peoples of the earth. Blessed are they that understand...."

This is given without compulsion, every Monk can read this and accept if it is from God or it is not. Yet now it is recorded, God knows all and this was not embraced by the Monks.

Fast forward and hindsight is now our most logical tool. We can ask how wise those commands were when we look at the controversy that has plagued the Church over the last 40 or so years. All could have been different, the Monks could have married.

This is but one example. There are many.

Regards Tony
Not really new, but imo not wrong.

The Quran says (57:27)
Then We sent in their wake Our messengers, and followed up with Jesus son of Mary, and We gave him the Gospel, and instilled in the hearts of those who followed him compassion and mercy. But as for the monasticism which they invented—We did not ordain it for them—only to seek God’s approval. But they did not observe it with its due observance. So We gave those of them who believed their reward, but many of them are sinful.
The verse doesn't say that it is a sin to join a monastery, just that it is not ordained and that it doesn't prevent from sin.

The Christian reformers dissolved monasteries.

A retreat can certainly be beneficial. Most monks and nuns also go out and have a role outside. What is not good is that they take unnecessary vows upon themselves and observe man-made rulings with high priority, which bears the danger that they forget the given commandments.
 
The verse doesn't say that it is a sin to join a monastery, just that it is not ordained and that it doesn't prevent from sin.
Let's go with this. Does any monastic believe their vows will prevent sin? Whoever implied that the monastic vocation is ordained for the majority of people? Does it imply there are no criminal monks? Does it exclude that satan may best hide in church?

Does it imply that non-monastics are better people in God's sight.? Remember to take this Baha'u'llah 1000 year edict beyond the Catholic church, to Buddhism and Hinduism

What about the many people who choose to live a celibate or unmarried life who do not follow any religion or religious order?
 
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Let's go with this. Does any monastic believe their vows will prevent sin?
Probably not
Whoever implied that the monastic vocation is ordained for the majority of people?
Nobody did
Does it imply there are no criminal monks?
Unfortunately not
Does it exclude that satan may best hide in church?
I know what you mean.
Does it imply that non-monastics are better people in God's sight.?
Not necessarily
Remember to take this Baha'u'llah 1000 year edict beyond the Catholic church, to Buddhism and Hinduism
Sayeth he not merely to come out?
What about the many people who choose to live a celibate or unmarried life who do not follow any religion or religious order?
That's an other question
 
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Do you think this is the majority behaviour? That's the logic of your OP. It's a very small percentage. Jesus was unmarried. Have you ever met a monk or nun, or spent time on a monastery retreat? Does child abuse never occur outside the monastic life? What about Buddhist and other monks? Did Baha'u'llah write to the Dalai Lama?
RJM, I am looking how God has all wisdom. I see God thanked all Monks for their service to God and humanity and then advised them that a monastic lifestyle was no longer required and gave leave for them to marry and get out and about.

I see the neglect to do this has unfolded in the events that have recently tarnished the reputation of the church.

That's it, plain and simple. The same thing will happen with the Baha'i, if they too neglect any commands God has given.

Regards Tony
 
Not really new, but imo not wrong.

The Quran says (57:27)

The verse doesn't say that it is a sin to join a monastery, just that it is not ordained and that it doesn't prevent from sin.

The Christian reformers dissolved monasteries.

A retreat can certainly be beneficial. Most monks and nuns also go out and have a role outside. What is not good is that they take unnecessary wows upon themselves and observe man-made rulings with high priority, which bears the danger that they forget the given commandments.
Every Messenger has also gone into the wilderness to be alone. Jesus and Muhammad did so, Baha'u'llah spent 2 years alone in the mountainous wilderness of Kurdistan as a dervish.

The OP is not offering that being a Monk was a sin, in no way shape or form. That is what other posters are offering.

The OP offers the thought that God gives a command to the Monks to leave the cloisters and Marry. Man neglects the command and ultimately the error of that neglect unfolds in the controversy the Church now faces.

Nothing more, nothing less has been offered, just the thought of how supple God's Word can unfold, ut is not always an instantaneous fulfillment.

Regards Tony
 
You choose to believe whatever Baha'u'llah says is the word of God, for 1000 years? Ok. Yay!

So what?
The question 'So What', is what all Messengers face.

One must ask their own self, 'So What' if Baha'u'llah is the Spirit of Truth come to guide us to all Truth.

That is Faith 101 RJM. I am here to offer that God has guided us unto all truth. I am not the holder of it, I can only offer what I have found.

Regards Tony
 
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