The Archeology of the Kingdom of God: Diving a Bit Deeper into a Baha'i Approach to Metaphysics

Continued from above:

The two human subjects, the outward or empirical and the inward or intellective,correspond analogically to the two aspects of the Divine Subject, the ontological or personal and the supra-ontological or impersonal; in man, as in divinis, duality is perceptible, or is actualized, only in relation to the element Mâyâ. (In Sufism, the key-notion of Mâyâ is expressed through the terms hijâb, “veil”, and tajallî, “unveiling” or“revelation”.)

Or again, to return to the ternary corpus, anima, spiritus: these three subjectivities respectively reflect the three hypostases—if indeed this term applies here—Existence, Being, Beyond-Being; just as God is not “absolutely Absolute” except as Beyond-Being, so man is not absolutely himself except in the Intellect; whereas the empirical ego nourishes itself with phenomena, the intellective ego burns them and tends toward the Essence.

There could never be any symmetry between the relative and the Absolute; as a result, if there is clearly no such thing as the absolutely relative, there is nonetheless a “relatively absolute”, and this is Being as creator, revealer, and saviour, who is absolute for the world, but not for the Essence: “Beyond-Being” or “Non-Being”.

If God were the Absolute in every respect and without any hypostatic restriction, there could be no contact between Him and the world, and the world would not even exist; for in order to be able to create, speak, and act, it is necessary that God Himself make Himself “world” in some fashion, and He does so through the ontological self-limitation that gives rise to the “personal God”, the world itself being the most extreme and hence the most relative of self-limitations. Pantheism would be right in its own way if it could restrict itself to this aspect without denying transcendence.

This point is telling for me (bold emphasis mine), and highlights a significant 'metaphysical error' or 'limitation' with regard to Christian doctrine and the Abrahamic Traditions generally.

In the face of the paradoxical complexity of the metaphysical Real, the situation of theologies can be summarized as follows: first of all, there is the axiom that God is theAbsolute since nothing can be greater than He; next, there is the logical evidence that there is in God something relative; finally, the conclusion is drawn that since God is the Absolute, what is relative in appearance cannot be other than absolute; the fact that this is contrary to logic proves that logic cannot reach God, who is “mystery” (Christianity) and who “does as He wills” (Islam). Now we have seen that the solution of the problem rests upon two points: objectively, the Absolute is susceptible of gradation, unless one wishes to cease discussing it; subjectively, it is not logic that is at fault, but the opacity of our axioms and the rigidity of our reasonings. Certainly, God “does as He wills”, but that is because we cannot discern all of His motives on the phenomenal plane; certainly, He is a“mystery”, but this is because of the inexhaustibility of His Subjectivity, the only one that is, in the last analysis, and that becomes clear to us only inasmuch as it whelms us in its light.

Schuon makes a distinction between the absolutely Absolute (Beyond-Being) and the relatively Absolute (Being, the Creator God). For him creation is seen as a result of God making Himself "world" through self-limitation. This implies the Absolute cannot interact without restricting itself. We are leaving the doors flung wide open for God's incarnation now.

What would Shaykh Ahmad have to say about this? Based on the little I have read, Schuon's idea of the world as a limitation of the Absolute might be seen as similar to the concept of "tashkīk" (gradation of being) by Mulla Sadra. Shaykh Ahmad rejects this concept, arguing it ultimately leads to panentheism (God in everything) or pantheism (God is everything). This creates difficulties when applied to God because it risks the difficulty of not seeing any line between God and creation.

For Shaykh Ahmad there's no need for self-limitation for God to create since creation exists as a separate realm within the divine act. While creation is a separate realm, it reflects God's actions and names. Through this God interacts with creation and sustains it. Think about the sun and its rays. The sun remains separate, but its light interacts with the world. Schuon might argue that even God's actions and names, if interacting with creation, suggest a limitation on the absolute transcendence of the absolutely Absolute. This is where Shaykh Ahmad's universes of discourse come in.

Schuon's view operates within a single universe of discourse where absolute transcendence seems incompatible with creation. Shaykh Ahmad's topos of cognizance allows for a transcendent unity where God encompasses both aspects without any self-limitation. For example, "God is Near and Not Near" can be true simultaneously. For proof of this type of discourse, one can look at the world of mathematics.

"In mathematical objective logic (category theory) it is well known that the law of excluded middle (“Either A is the case or not-A is the case”) does not generally hold in a mathematical topos. Furthermore, in a universe fundamentally characterized by continuity, not discontinuity, it is also the case that the law of excluded middle does not hold. Contradictory opposites are not always jointly exhaustive. It is actually amazing that the existential Illuminationists did not discover this, given the continuous-field nature of their ontology of existence. Furthermore, there are also universes of discourse (in the context of formal systems of logic) where some contradictions can be true."

In short, the Qur'an refutes Schuon by simply stating "It begets not, nor is it begotten" (Q 112.3). This aligns with God's essence being "utterly sanctified from any attribute of causation," to use the words of the Bab, so the Qur'an, Shaykh Ahmad, and the Bab contradict Schuon's idea of the relatively Absolute God as the direct cause of creation. The Bab states that "He has fashioned the Will from nothingness, through Itself, and ordained it to be the Cause of all that is other than It." This suggests God doesn't need to limit himself to create. He creates through his will, which acts as a separate cause.
 
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In short, the Qur'an refutes Schuon by simply stating "It begets not, nor is it begotten" (Q 112.3). This aligns with God's essence being "utterly sanctified from any attribute of causation," to use the words of the Bab, so the Qur'an, Shaykh Ahmad, and the Bab contradict Schuon's idea of the relatively Absolute God as the direct cause of creation. The Bab states that "He has fashioned the Will from nothingness, through Itself, and ordained it to be the Cause of all that is other than It." This suggests God doesn't need to limit himself to create. He creates through his will, which acts as a separate cause.
In the Súriy-i-Haykal we find this comment.

".… The Holy Spirit Itself hath been generated through the agency of a single letter revealed by this Most Great Spirit, if ye be of them that comprehend..."

Regards Tony
 
In the Súriy-i-Haykal we find this comment.

".… The Holy Spirit Itself hath been generated through the agency of a single letter revealed by this Most Great Spirit, if ye be of them that comprehend..."

Regards Tony
What is your point? Shaykh Ahmad, the Bab, Baha'u'llah, and Abdu'l-Baha are all in agreement on this issue.
 
What is your point? Shaykh Ahmad, the Bab, Baha'u'llah, and Abdu'l-Baha are all in agreement on this issue.
There was no point but to offer a passage that I saw supports the view offered.

I would hesitate to say it acts as a separate cause, any description of the connection would most likely be erroneous. Baha'u'llah has given a vivid description, a part being this. Is this not the Metaphysical foundation of our understandings?

"Having created the world and all that liveth and moveth therein, He, through the direct operation of His unconstrained and sovereign Will, chose to confer upon man the unique distinction and capacity to know Him and to love Him—a capacity that must needs be regarded as the generating impulse and the primary purpose underlying the whole of creation.… Upon the inmost reality of each and every created thing He hath shed the light of one of His names, and made it a recipient of the glory of one of His attributes. Upon the reality of man, however, He hath focused the radiance of all of His names and attributes, and made it a mirror of His own Self. Alone of all created things man hath been singled out for so great a favor, so enduring a bounty.…
And since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation, and no resemblance whatever can exist between the transient and the Eternal, the contingent and the Absolute, He hath ordained that in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven. Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: “Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.” And in like manner, the words: “Arise, O Muhammad, for lo, the Lover and the Beloved are joined together and made one in Thee.” He similarly saith: “There is no distinction whatsoever between Thee and Them, except that They are Thy Servants.” Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, XVII

So the cause is bound to God as God's servant and made One?

Sorry if this has naught to do with what you are trying to discuss.

Regards Tony
 
It's a sensible dogma in my opinion. I don't care if it is an Abrahamic one or not.
OK. It sets up a paradox for me.

Just like many Christians don't care whether or not the idea of physical resurrection was actually borrowed from Zoroastrianism, which is not an Abrahamic religion.
Bart Ehrman regards a Zoroastrian source of Resurrection theology as a problematic if not unlikely thesis. Could well be the other way round.
 
Schuon makes a distinction ... This implies the Absolute cannot interact without restricting itself.
I tend to agree on the point that 'self limitation' is unfortunate without a fuller explanation. In defence of Schuon, the 'limitation' is providential, in the sense that God cannot manifest Himself in His totality because His utter transcendence places Him beyond all human comprehension – any 'limitation' is for our benefit, rather than divine necessity.

What would Shaykh Ahmad have to say about this?
That's between Schuon (a Sufi) and the Sufi schools.

Schuon might argue that even God's actions and names, if interacting with creation, suggest a limitation on the absolute transcendence of the absolutely Absolute.
I can pretty well assure you he would refute any such suggestion of a limitation of the Absolute.

Schuon's view operates within a single universe of discourse where absolute transcendence seems incompatible with creation.
I'm not sure how you glean that from the excerpt posted, but it's not the case.

Schuon was a Sufi after all, and as far as I know highly regarded in such circles – by Seyyed Hossein Nasr, for example.

"In mathematical objective logic (category theory) it is well known that the law of excluded middle (“Either A is the case or not-A is the case”) does not generally hold in a mathematical topos. Furthermore, in a universe fundamentally characterized by continuity, not discontinuity, it is also the case that the law of excluded middle does not hold. Contradictory opposites are not always jointly exhaustive. It is actually amazing that the existential Illuminationists did not discover this, given the continuous-field nature of their ontology of existence. Furthermore, there are also universes of discourse (in the context of formal systems of logic) where some contradictions can be true."
Absolutely agree, that's where Christian metaphysics is more insightful than the Platonic/Neoplatonic models that depend upon some order of essential duality ... that God is both utterly transcendent and intimately immanent is an example that refutes the 'excluded middle' God as creator of the world, as Incarnate (and the two are closely aligned) testify to that.

Such was the revealed insight of the Chalcedon definition – as this is a Baha'i thread, I won't labour that point here.

This suggests God doesn't need to limit himself to create. He creates through his will, which acts as a separate cause.[/SIZE]
How can the Divine Will be a separate cause with regard to the Divine?
 
Sorry if this has naught to do with what you are trying to discuss.
A separate discussion, perhaps, as I think it touches the core of the issue between us?

At this point, I'd say I do not see, in light of the first paragraph "Having created the world and all that liveth and moveth therein, He, through the direct operation of His unconstrained and sovereign Will," why the second should declare "And since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation"?

This is, at face value, where the Baha'i and the Abrahamics (and Hinduism and Buddhism, among others) part company ... ?
 
A separate discussion, perhaps, as I think it touches the core of the issue between us?

At this point, I'd say I do not see, in light of the first paragraph "Having created the world and all that liveth and moveth therein, He, through the direct operation of His unconstrained and sovereign Will," why the second should declare "And since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation"?

This is, at face value, where the Baha'i and the Abrahamics (and Hinduism and Buddhism, among others) part company ... ?
Maybe a different discussion, but maybe it ties all the Metaphysical aspects of faiths together. (By the way I have to look up meanings words such as that)

So much I would like to discuss, I have deleted and retyped this reply many times.

I do not think it parts the company of any of the God Given Faiths, I see it binds the Messengers together as One spokesperson for God all speaking as the same Cause, for the Most Great Spirit.

Regards Tony
 
OK. It sets up a paradox for me. Bart Ehrman regards a Zoroastrian source of Resurrection theology as a problematic if not unlikely thesis. Could well be the other way round.

Bart Ehrman said:

"The first involves a problem I’ve thought about for a long time: Our tendency to think that every idea has an external “source” just can’t be right (in bald terms), as if every idea has to start somewhere else other than where we find it. That is to say, suppose we argue that resurrection came to the Jews from the Persians. OK, then, where did the Persians get it? Suppose they got it from the X’s. Then where did the X’s get it? From the Y’s? Where did the Y’s get it? From the Z’s? Where did…. As you can see, it’s an eternal regress. Someone, at some time, in some place, comes up with a new idea. And so it’s actually not necessarily the case that Jews got the idea from anywhere. In theory, some Jewish someone could have made it up!"

So the solution is to argue every idea has an internal source? That all the ideas in the Bible originated with the Jewish people?

Ehrman said:

"My second comment is the realization that I had six months ago, when thinking about such things in reference to Jews getting the idea of resurrection from Perians. The dates don’t work. Israel was subject to Persia from the late 6th to the late 4th century BCE. Do we see any evidence of a belief in resurrection in Jewish texts from that period? Well, actually, no we don’t.

Ezekiel 37 was the first to explicitly mention resurrection. It is likely dated between 593 BCE and 570 BCE. The text was written by someone that was held in captivity for over a decade in a culture influenced by Zoroastrianism. Of course, most see this use as a metaphor, but the imagery is novel. A coincidence? I think not.

"Iranian connection enabled Ezekiel to transcend the limits of Jewish belief current in his day. It may well be that Ezekiel was among the first Jewish theologians for whom the Zoroastrian connection became decisive in redefining Jewish belief. Monotheism, the doctrine of creation, the emphasis on ritual purity, and eventually the whole apocalyptic drama were developed or reshaped after the Jewish encounter with a religion with which it already had much in common."
-Bernhard Lang

Ehrman said:

"When do we see such a belief? Starting in the Maccabean period a full century and a half after Israel was controlled by the Persians. If the Jews had been having extensive contacts with Persians (and presumably their religion) in the 160s, it would make sense that they borrowed their idea of resurrection."

During the Parthian period Jews and Zoroastrians fought together against common enemies:

". . . Hinnells makes a compelling case for a later dating of the period of influence. He argues that it took place during the Parthian period, and convincingly describes the historical setting which makes such influence-as he writes-' not only possible but likely' (p. 33). For, between 200 B.C.E. and 100 C.E., Jews and Zoroastrians were allies fighting against common enemies, first the Seleucids and then the Romans, and Zoroastrianism was a powerful presence in the Jewish world."

Ehrman said:


"But in fact the influence at the time, and for a long time before, was entirely Greek. And Greeks did not have any notion of a future resurrection of the dead. Quite the contrary, when (later) Greeks heard of such an idea they consistently and roundly mocked it as a piece of hilarious nonsense."

The Greeks mentioned the doctrine as early as the fourth century. They attribute it to Persians, not Jews. Greek sources identifying resurrection as a Persian belief add weight to the connection, and it further weakens Ehrman's viewpoint.
 
So the solution is to argue every idea has an internal source? That all the ideas in the Bible originated with the Jewish people?
No, that's not what he's saying.

But we're wandering off the point. Your claim was "Just like many Christians don't care whether or not the idea of physical resurrection was actually borrowed from Zoroastrianism... "
Which I said was unlikely. The Zoroastrian view was of a general resurrection at the end of time, not the Resurrection of Christ, and the idea of an end-of-time judgement was more likely derived from Jewish mystical speculation than Zoroastrian.

Of course, the whole region was a melting pot of ideas, but I tend to side with Ehrman that not all ideas necessarily derive from somewhere else, and that ideas are incorporated and reshaped, for various reasons ...
 
I do not think it parts the company of any of the God Given Faiths ...

"Having created the world and all that liveth and moveth therein, He, through the direct operation of His unconstrained and sovereign Will, chose to confer upon man the unique distinction and capacity to know Him and to love Him—a capacity that must needs be regarded as the generating impulse and the primary purpose underlying the whole of creation... "
That I can agree with. It's basically Abrahamic 101.

And since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation, and no resemblance whatever can exist between the transient and the Eternal, the contingent and the Absolute ...
That, in the light of Biblical Revelation, I cannot. I'm not sure the Quran would agree either, but I'll leave that to others.

But I would further say it seems an illogical statement in light of the prior text ... so perhaps I'm missing a trick?
 
No, that's not what he's saying.
I know that is not what he is saying. Some ideas can be internal, but that doesn't negate external influences. You give the impression you think Judaism's belief system was uninfluenced by other cultures, and that their ideas are 100% Hebraic and are not syncretic at all. Well, at least the "authentic" version.

But we're wandering off the point. Your claim was "Just like many Christians don't care whether or not the idea of physical resurrection was actually borrowed from Zoroastrianism... "
Yep.

Which I said was unlikely.
Based on what? I pointed out the timeline is more plausible based on the previous post. The imagery of Ezekiel 37 suggests external influence, Jews had contact with Zoroastrians during Parthian period, and ancient Greeks attributed the resurrection to Persians, not Jews.

"According to the [Zoroastrian] Magi, men will be resurrected and become immortal."
-Theopompous (380 BC – 315 BC)

The Zoroastrian view was of a general resurrection at the end of time,

So Christians don't believe in a general resurrection at the end of time?

not the Resurrection of Christ,

An irrelevant distinction. The bodily resurrection after death is the key connection. You're arguing that since the specifics differ, Judaism couldn't have borrowed the idea. This is the appeal to ignorance fallacy.

Also, the idea of dying and rising gods predates Christianity as well. Nothing original, as Justin Martyr rightly pointed out centuries ago in his dialogue. Whether or not Justin actually accepts these older notions to be true is another story.
 
I know that is not what he is saying. Some ideas can be internal, but that doesn't negate external influences. You give the impression you think Judaism's belief system was uninfluenced by other cultures, and that their ideas are 100% Hebraic and are not syncretic at all. Well, at least the "authentic" version.
Doesn't affirm them either ...

I did say the whole region was a melting pot of ideas ... I suppose the art of the scholar is to determine what's generic and what's particular.

In the Hebrew Scriptures we have a journey from polytheism to monotheism. I think it's a mix of external stories and internal dialogue. For example the Flood Myth is not unique to Judaism, but the lesson is. But then the Hebrew version had centuries to evolve, whereas the earlier Mesopotamian myths remain somewhat stuck in time.

Based on what? I pointed out the timeline is more plausible based on the previous post. The imagery of Ezekiel 37 suggests external influence, Jews had contact with Zoroastrians during Parthian period, and ancient Greeks attributed the resurrection to Persians, not Jews.
As I said, without evidence, it's an open question.

"According to the [Zoroastrian] Magi, men will be resurrected and become immortal."
-Theopompous (380 BC – 315 BC)
The only reference I can find for that is Richard Carrier, and he's widely regarded as unreliable ...

So Christians don't believe in a general resurrection at the end of time?
?

An irrelevant distinction. The bodily resurrection after death is the key connection. You're arguing that since the specifics differ, Judaism couldn't have borrowed the idea. This is the appeal to ignorance fallacy.
No, I'm not. I'm saying the idea of Resurrection is generic, the Christian treatment is particular.

Also, the idea of dying and rising gods predates Christianity as well. Nothing original, as Justin Martyr rightly pointed out centuries ago in his dialogue. Whether or not Justin actually accepts these older notions to be true is another story.
Well of course – but then I would argue that since Creation is 'Trinity-shaped' then it's not unreasonable to suggest that human logic will find its way to certain truths (as well as error, humanity not being infallible) ... however, the data of Revelation contextualises the whole debate.

Hence I'm a Christian Neoplatonist, as opposed to say a Plotinian Neoplatonist.
 
The only reference I can find for that is Richard Carrier, and he's widely regarded as unreliable ...
Greek historian Theopompus (380 BC - 315 BC) emerged as a key authority on this topic within Greek literary circles. Later writers like Plutarch (46-120), Diogenes Laërtius (3rd century CE), and Aeneas of Gaza (2nd half of 5th century) all considered Theopompus to be a reliable source for understanding Persian beliefs about resurrection. Diogenes Laërtius even mentions Eudemus of Rhodes (4th century BC) as another early witness to these Zoroastrian beliefs. See C. D. Elledge.
 
@Thomas, see Reddit for an excerpt here:
It seems like scholars aren't sure whether Zoroastrianism influenced Judaism. Some think there was influence, some have doubts. A decent overview of the topic is found in Resurrection of the Dead in Early Judaism, 200 BCE-CE 200(Oxford University Press, 2017), Casey Deryl Elledge

From the book:

In the crucial centuries in which resurrection emerged, both Zoroastrianism and Judaism were, in a sense, “Hellenistic" religions. Martin Hengel, therefore, advises that any possible Iranian influence upon Judaism must have been further mediated through a Hellenized synthesis. Herodotus, Theopompus, Hermippus, Strabo, Plutarch, and Diogenes Laertius illustrate that the Greeks (and Romans) were themselves far more interested in Persian religion than comparable Jewish sources. Judaism could conceivably have had access throughout the ancient world to various interpretations of "Persian" wisdom that were mediated through Hellenism. Through Hermippus of Smyrna, for example, Greek and Latin authors claim to have had access to actual Zoroastrian literature. Pliny the Elder comments that Hermippus had made accessible "by the indices prefaced to his volumes the two million verses composed by Zoroaster" (Nat. Hist. 30:2.4). Such references likely refer to extensive "Zoroastrian" compositions, whose contents represent either a Hellenized form of the wisdom of genuine Persian Magi 22 or, to the contrary, entirely Greek literary projections.

Theopompus, in particular, became a frequently cited Greek authority on Zoroastrian eschatology. While Plutarch does not directly mention resurrection in his reliance on Theopompus, he does report at least one suggestive detail as to the kind of embodied existence that humans will enjoy. After Ahura Mazda's triumph "Hades shall pass away, humans shall be happy; neither shall they have need of food, nor shall they cast a shadow" (Isis and Osiris 47c). In the interpretation of Albert de Jong, the passage may refer to a spiritual resurrection, as opposed to a resurrection in a material body.24 Or one might at least conclude that life will be lived out in a new and transcendent form of embodiment in a world where death has permanently ceased. -- Diogenes Laertius attributes to Theopompus a more explicit report on resurrection: "According to the Magi men shall come to life again and be immortal..." (Lives 1:9);26 and he further attributes a similar testimony to Eudemus of Rhodes (fourth century BCE).27 The later neo-Platonist author Aeneas of Gaza attributes to Theopompus the claim that "Zoroaster predicts that there will be a time in which there will be a resurrection of all the dead."28 It is possible that these authors reinterpret Theopompus. Surviving details in Theopompus' testimonies have also been criticized as misunderstandings of Zoroastrianism. Nevertheless, the testimonies of Theopompus anchor the belief in revivification into an everlasting life to the latter half of the fourth century BCE. This antedates the flourishing of literal conceptions of resurrection in Judaism during the Hellenistic era...

Thus, even scholars such as Boyce, who strongly assert Zoroastrian influence, are inevitably struck by the extent to which Jews reinterpreted and developed very different conceptions than those expressed in classic Zoroastrian sources. This feature of Jewish adaptation illustrates the difficulties involved in citing "direct" influences, even in the favorable comparisons provided by the Messianic Apocalypse and the Fourth Sibylline Oracle. The same Jewish authors who actively reinterpreted earlier "scriptural” traditions in this era apparently did the same with any putative "foreign" influences. The Hellenization of Zoroastrian traditions may also have distorted any presumed Jewish reception of their eschatology. If Judaism reinterpreted Zoroastrian contributions, it probably did so in dialogue with other kinds of non-Zoroastrian traditions, as the Fourth Sibylline Oracle may illustrate in its possible confluence of Jewish, Persian, and Stoic conceptions. Moreover, as Alan Segal explains, any reception of Zoroastrian thought in Judaism was also partially fragmented among different social groups. As resurrection flourished among millenarian groups and the Pharisees, Greek influence inspired the hope in the immortality of the soul among some within the aristocracy and Hellenized Jewry. Thus, some sectors within Jewish society were more (and less) susceptible to Persian influence than others.

Rather than seeking a "direct" influence, it seems more useful to consider the larger contextual features of encounter between Zoroastrian eschatology and early Jewish thought. James Barr, for example, counsels that both Jews and Zoroastrians participated in the larger "oriental reaction against Greek cultural expansionism" during the crucial centuries in which resurrection emerged. In the interpretation of Barr, "it may have been as part of this oriental anti Hellenistic reaction that the Jews came—if they did—to find Iranian conceptions useful for the expression of their own religion.” Indeed, it is within the Hellenistic era, not the Persian, that Jewish literature seems to preserve the closest putative correspondences with Zoroastrianism. This more contextual model proposes a dynamic within which Judaism defined itself in relation to the new Hellenistic power by reinterpreting its own traditions in correspondence with those of other "oriental” cults, perhaps including Zoroastrianism. Within this complex environment, the reinterpretation of earlier traditions (like Isa. 24-27, 65-66; Ezek. 37) in the Hellenistic era now takes on the vitality of literal human revivification, as already present in the much celebrated Zoroastrian eschatology. In this sense, Persian influence may have made it plausible for Judaism to reinterpret the imagery of earlier prophetic texts in a more literalizing way, even as the Hellenistic empire made it imperative to do so.

John Granger Cook also touches on the subject of Zoroastrian influence in his book Empty Tomb, Apotheosis, Resurrection(Mohr Siebeck, 2018):

A short discussion of the origins of the most ancient belief in resurrection is appropriate. Theopompus (fourth century B.C.E.) wrote in the eighth book of his Philippica that the "Magi believe people will live again and be immortal and that all that exists will endure by their invocations." The Avestan hymns of praise to various deities, the Yashts, support the claim Theopompus and almost surely date before the time of the Achaemenids (VI-IV B.C.E). Jan N. Bremmer dates Yacht 19 to the time of the Achaemenids and notes that it was in the Saassanian period that resurrection became a major theme. This dating may need some revision. Albert de Jong makes a good case for the Achaemenid kings' role in the development of Zoroastrianism. He concedes that there is no doubt that the Avesta contains texts that are much older than the Achaemenid period... Yasht 19.11, for example, is clear: "In order for (His creatures and creations) to make existence brilliant,/ not aging, imperishable,/ not rotting, not putrefying,/ enjoying eternal life, enjoying eternal benefit, enjoying power at will,/so that the dead will rise again,/ imperishability will come over the living,/ (and) existence will be made brilliant in value."

The Avestan text is part of a recitation which the Saoshyant and his helpers use to "revivify the bodies of the dead and reunite them with their souls at the end of time."...Although the body will be recreated and united with the soul, the emphasis on the raising of the dead implies that humans "will regain their disarticulated bodies at the end of time and be resurrected". Vevaina concludes, "...the existence of two independent Young Avestan references to the resurrection, both of them in genuinely old texts found in different manuscript groups...strongly suggests that the notion of the resurrection was an integral part of the ancient Zoroastrian eschatological myth that was existence in the fist millenium B.C.E., if not earlier."

Although it is intriguing that references to resurrection in ancient Judaism emerge during the Achaemenid period, proving or disproving intercultural influences between Persia and Israel is unnecessary for the purposes of this monograph. In my view one should credit the Zoroastrians with the initial development of the concept of an eschatological resurrection.
 
And since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation, and no resemblance whatever can exist between the transient and the Eternal, the contingent and the Absolute ...
That, in the light of Biblical Revelation, I cannot. I'm not sure the Quran would agree either, but I'll leave that to others.

But I would further say it seems an illogical statement in light of the prior text ... so perhaps I'm missing a trick?
I see it in passages such as this.

John 1:18 "No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him."
John 5:37 "And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form."

I am also still considering that the mention of the Father could be Jesus also foretelling his connection to Baha'u'llah as the Father, especially when John 1:18 is read as punctuated.

Jesus says no one has seen God at any time, stop.

The Son Jesus, in the bosom of the Father Baha'u'llah, has declared God unto us.

It is just a frame of reference change in how we read those passages.

This also brings up other metaphysical conversations I have seen and read on the Internet, where it is suggested that the Messengers actually send themselves. They are after all all from the same Essence of the creative Holy Spirit.

I consider that all of humanity are from the same human spirit, which the Messengers also are born into this world with, but they do not need to be born again, they, in this reality are of virgin birth, already of the Holy Spirit.

It is their image we are born in, the perfect Human, that is immersed in the Holy Spirit fully submitted to the Will of God, serving all humanity in the capacity that can only be given of God.

Baha'u'llah offerd that we are given the chance to immerse ourselves in the ocean of God's Words, so all the pearls of great price can be found.

You have explored many scriptures, you would see the pearls.of wisdom that is to be found in them all. I see the key is, that we will not find the Oneness inherent in those scriptures until we look without intent of a place in heaven or fear of hell, without hope for reward or fear of punishment, for that Oneness. I see it is all about Love, a longing to be One in a Spirit that has given us the capacity of a rational mind, that being the Holy Spirit, all the Names, all the Attributes given of God.

That Love is immense. I have felt it once in a dream where I was flying and reached out and touched a dove flying out in front of me. It exploded into the most brilliant and intense white light, which was a sensation of Love so overwhelmingly beautiful, so unexplainable in intensity that I broke into uncontrollable tears and awoke from that dream in such a state.

I have always wanted to go back and live in that dream. A funny aspect of that dream was that when the flash of white light happened, a short poem of a few lines also came to mind and I woke up with the tears and reciting that poem, it was simply about the meaning of life. I said it a few times and was overjoyed with such a wonder, I was about to get up and write it down, but the thought of looking for pen and paper at such a time, and the fact it was a short poem, I was positive I could write it down in the morning. Ha ha I awoke a few hours later and immediately realised I could only remember a few words and as I searched my mind for that poem, it was no longer there.

Never put off for tomorrow, something that needed to be done.;)🤣

Anyway, me diverting away from metaphysical conversations, why talk about Love (the capacity of all of us) as the bond. Maybe talking about Love is a metaphysical conversation?

Regards Tony
 
The Son Jesus, in the bosom of the Father Baha'u'llah, has declared God unto us.

It is just a frame of reference change in how we read those passages.
By selecting passages out-of-context and turning them on their head to mean the opposite of what they do mean?

“If you had known me, you would have known my Father also; and from now on you know him and have seen him.”

Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”

Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does the works."

John 14:7-10
Jesus wasn't talking about Baha'u'llah @Tony Bristow-Stagg

Anyway -- please carry on, gentlemen
 
John 1:18 "No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him."
Two things:
1: Here Jesus is declaring His divine sonship ("The only begotten Son") and as such now – in the Incarnation – God is seen. As Jesus says later: "... he that seeth me seeth the Father also."

John 5:37 "And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form."
Here the 'you' are those Jews who 'persecuted' (v16) Jesus for healing a man on the sabbath. His point is they are 'literalist fundamentalists' who claim divine authority but in fact speak for themselves. This whole discourse is a condemnation of such an attitude: " But I know you, that you have not the love of God in you." (v42) – Had they the Word abiding in them, they would know Jesus for who He is.

2: From the literal pov, God has no 'form' therefore He cannot be 'seen', but when, in Exodus 3 for example, Moses sees a burning bush on Mount Horeb, he looks and wonders, "And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush" (v2) but then: "... God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I" (v4) "... I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God." (v6) – so what opens as a burning bush, then a an angel, then – as far as Moses is concerned – God Himself, so Moses 'sees' in the sense that the phenomena is a divine disclosure, and this evidence refutes the statement that "there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation"

I am also still considering that the mention of the Father could be Jesus also foretelling his connection to Baha'u'llah as the Father, especially when John 1:18 is read as punctuated.
Not according to your own logic – "and no resemblance whatever can exist between the transient and the Eternal, the contingent and the Absolute" then Baha'u'llah, who is transient and contingent, is cannot be the Father.

It is just a frame of reference change in how we read those passages.
Indeed .... doersn't mean we read them correctly, though, does it?

I could say from a given frame of reference the passage is talking about me.
 
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