Rosenzweig on miracles

dauer

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Ha ha ha! I'm creating a thread.

The profesor of my class on Sefer HaKuzari by Yehuda HaLevi went off on a tangent about miracles. He mentioned an understanding of miracles presented by Franz Rosenzweig.

Rosenzweig asked the question, "Where do miracles exist?" He then answered, "In us. It is our experience of something that makes it a miracle." Further, "Why are there no miracles today?" The answer, "Because we don't allow them."

Basically, something becomes a miracle when we view some occurance that way due to its particular timing or nature. We don't experience miracles today because we have trained ourselves to view experiences critically. This is very similar to my own thoughts on the matter, although more developed, and one more reason I need to attempt to read some Rosenzweig (some other things he's said have also resonated strongly with me.)

So what do you think about what Rosenzweig said? What do you think about miracles? Why don't we have miracles today?

Dauer
 
I'm afraid you’re wrong... People do not see and experience miracles because they don't exist. However people do see and experience miracles because they do exist. That’s slightly different view as what you are saying isn't it? Before you say its not please read on. When people are lost and in a negative state of mind they will never view a miracle because they will be blinded of its true nature. Infamous miracles in Cyprus are by 3 saints, Agia Irini, Agios Nicholas and Agios Raphael. they are 3 saints died during a Turkish invasion of Greece, Agia Irini was 12 years old and she refused to do something (not sure what) against Christianity and for some reason they had a hard time killing her because she wouldn't die, they put her in a vase and burned her alive. The others 2 were priests and all 3 of them were slaughtered. There miracles range from healing of cancer to amking people fall blind and hearing the saints speak to them and question why they lost faith. Alot of unconnected cases of people that have encountered these 3 saints in Greece and Cyprus. Miracles do happen they are actually closer to reality then eating an apple. They are Opposite to a magic trick and they are opposite to an illusion. They are a pure and positive state of reality and truth and only a blinded person would question them. I sware to you I have and my relatives have experienced miracles, Icon crying, back pain healed after a saint visited my mum in her dream and placed his hands on her back. More visitations in dreams. Even superstitions exist, the day I bought a Black rabbit home when we were staying at my grandparents in Cyprus I was given my grandma died, Black rabbits are disguised as death in superstition.. You tell me, what’s more reality, Miracles and signs? Or buying a material item?

 
I believe in miracles.. Ive seen miracles.. Ive experienced miracles.. theres no doubt in my mind that they exist today.
 
Hi Brian :)

hmm im not even going to bother looking up the correct definition.. Im just going to tell you that its anything that has no reasonable logical answer.. Something that happen that would seem impossible to something that didnt believe in miracles. :)
 
PM,

but if it really happened and could be adequately documented, is it truly a miracle or just something we do not yet understand? Or is it a coincidence that makes it appear as if something wondrous happened because of what we attribute to the situation? They don't keep records of all the people the healers don't heal. That's not awe-inspiring. There was something on TV the other day about John of God which did show that while some people got better from his healings, some people did not. Logistically, this makes sense.

Your other example of superstition fits with my definition of a miracle quite nicely. You brought a black rabbit home. Your grandmother died. So you attributed her death to the black rabbit. You were willing to sacrifice reason in order to experience a miracle. Do you understand the angle I am coming from? If you had brought home a T-shirt that said "I heart Sandwiches" instead, and then she died, would you have attributed the same power to the T-shirt? Why? Why not?

FS, I think his statement was addressed to the individual whose rational mind rules their ability to experience things as miracles. For them there are no miracles. If they can stop analyzing and reassoning each situation, the miracles crawl out of the woodwork.

---

Why is it a miracle that a man doesn't get fired and someone else does, when he thought he would be fired? Because he experiences it as a miracle. The man who got fired most likely doesn't experience it as a miracle.

Why is it a miracle that you make it to the airport just before you miss the plane? Experience. We experience it as a miracle rather than coincidence.

Why is it a miracle that a child survives a horrible illness while another child who gets the same illness and dies, for them it is not a miracle? The two situations are extremely similar.

Dauer
 
Your other example of superstition fits with my definition of a miracle quite nicely. You brought a black rabbit home. Your grandmother died. So you attributed her death to the black rabbit.
It's a well known superstition of the black rabbit..



Dauer, let me tell you a little secret have you seen Harry potter and the philosophers stone? Before you start classing me insane, it’s the same sort of Moral. To experience a miricle only a person that has deep intent within them of Good or generally truely accepts miracles will be exposed to them. No miracle will suddenly appear in the sky for the whole world to see because miracles do come from within, to experience and benefit from miracles you have to be in touch with god on a subconscious or conscious level. I have seen an Icon cry oil, not just me but my whole family, an Icon of the Virgin Mary holding Jesus made out of MDF wood and a paper picture. Oil all over the window seal coming from her eyes, it happens the miracle of the crying virgin is as old as Christianity itself, does that make us more superior that we witnessed such a thing, not at all, not at all. It's happened in Church all over Cyprus for hunderds of years with people been classed insane over it. Weeping is the one emotion which is probably most intune with god of all human emotions. You won't find god by miricles alone and me telling you this might probably make no difference at all. Or does it make you question it more?
 
Postmaster said:
It's a well known superstition of the black rabbit..

I've never heard of it. Whether it's well known or not. If you brought something else home and she died, you wouldn't attribute it to the other item. Like if you brought home a 2 liter of cola. You wouldn't attribute your grandmother dying to that. But because you have pre-concieved notions about the rabbit you attribute it to the rabbit.

Dauer, let me tell you a little secret have you seen Harry potter and the philosophers stone?


Which one was that? Maybe yes and maybe no.

To experience a miricle only a person that has deep intent within them of Good or generally truely accepts miracles will be exposed to them.

How do you define "good?" Does this mean all people with a sense of good will have exposure to miracles or only those who happen to also believe in miracles? If a person truly accepts miracles, of course miracles will happen to them. They will find miraculous reasons for the occurances in their lives.


No miracle will suddenly appear in the sky for the whole world to see because miracles do come from within,

Doesn't the bible disagree with this, and instead suggests that many people can witness a miracle even if they don't have faith? I don't know in what regard you hold the bible so that may mean nothing to you. But I agree that miracles come from within, although for a different reason.

to experience and benefit from miracles you have to be in touch with god on a subconscious or conscious level.

So do all people who are in touch with God in this way witness miracles? What if they are in touch with God but they don't believe in miracles?

I have seen an Icon cry oil, not just me but my whole family, an Icon of the Virgin Mary holding Jesus made out of MDF wood and a paper picture. Oil all over the window seal coming from her eyes, it happens the miracle of the crying virgin is as old as Christianity itself, does that make us more superior that we witnessed such a thing, not at all, not at all. It's happened in Church all over Cyprus for hunderds of years with people been classed insane over it.

Will comment on in a moment.

Weeping is the one emotion which is probably most intune with god of all human emotions.

In what way is this true? Why? What about joy? Why isn't joy must in tune with God?

You won't find god by miricles alone and me telling you this might probably make no difference at all. Or does it make you question it more?

I agree you won't find God by miracles alone, because I believe miracles are something created subconciously by the individual (although I don't necessarily view this as a bad thing) as a part of interpreting the world around him. To get to the other part:

It does make me question more, question you more as I just have. Let me tell you about something that happened to me:


I was with some friends in the woods. We were up in Maine camping out. It was funny because the campfire suddenly imploded in the most peculiar way. Granted, anytime a campfire implodes it's peculiar, but the implosion was so colorful and it didn't stop. It looked like the whole universe confined in one space and I could not stare directly. A voice called out to me and it was like the shofar and like the clap of thunder and in my heart I thought I felt the voices of all of my ancestors:

"Benjamin! Benjamin!"

"Here I am" said I.

"I am the God of your fathers, the one who brought you out of Egypt and into Israel, and out of Israel and into many years of suffering, and all of that suffering eclipsed by the shadow of the Nazi Camps, until you stand today a free man. Know this: I am beyond your true understanding, but with reason you can understand the nature of my creation and through this praise my name. Go forth and praise my name in all that you do. I am your God."

And with this the implosion turned into a pillar of fire reaching up to the heavens, like an old television switching off, and dissipated into the whole surrounding campsite and night's sky. I spoke to my friends and they had all seen the same thing, heard the same message addressed directly to them.

We did a little research and found that this was not uncommon, in fact it's quite common. But usually it happens to the people who already know this and aren't willing to report it because it would "compromise their status as questioning intellectuals." And so mine is one of the only reports that has escaped, the others hidden in obscurity.

You won't find miracles that are not expainable or are not of your own creation, but you don't need miracles to find God anyway. So this might mean nothing to you, or does it make you question more?

Dauer
 
I already knew God and had my faith when I experienced the miracles.. I didnt need them to prove anything to me.. Does that have anything to do with why I experienced them? I dont know..will be a good question to ask Him when I see Him :)
 
Faithfulservant said:
I already knew God and had my faith when I experienced the miracles.. I didnt need them to prove anything to me.. Does that have anything to do with why I experienced them? I dont know..will be a good question to ask Him when I see Him :)

That's not really what I was saying, just that miracles are a matter of our perception of the world around us, our interpretation of the events in our lives.


Dauer
 
dauer said:
That's not really what I was saying, just that miracles are a matter of our perception of the world around us, our interpretation of the events in our lives.


Dauer
This is an astute point. Miracles are that which benefits the recipient(s) directly, and subsequent witnesses indirectly, yet cannot be rationally explained by the recipient, nor any witnesses that may observe the event.

Example: Moses parted the Red (Reed) Sea (actually only a finger vestige of the Sea), and this was observed by many, including those that drowned. Miracle we said. Then in the 1970s, scientists observed a strange phenomenon pertaining to this part of the Red Sea. If the wind blew from a certain direction at a mere 10 miles per hour, why, the water literally backed up! In fact it almost formed a wall of water, and the sea bed was nearly devoid of water.

So, scientifically it is feasable to "part" the Red Sea, under certain atmospheric conditions. However, it does not explain how Moses knew exactly when to be at the shore, when to raise his arms, why when he lowered his arms out of fatigue that the water began to fill back in, and when the younger men held Moses' arms out for him, the wind picked back up and pushed the water back. Finally, when Moses dropped his arms one last time, the sea collapsed in on itself, killing Pharoe's entire army.

That part is still a mystery, hence a miracle. Lucky? I wish I were that lucky. In my day job, I could use that kind of maritime luck...

v/r

Q
 
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