A non-Christian understanding of the Christian Bible

If Iron Man was a morally good person, he would have no reason to fight Jesus. If there was a battle here on Earth, Iron man would probably win. But Jesus is not of this world, his kingdom is heaven. If Iron Man wanted the fight in heaven, he would lose.
Hello Eric, the real Jesus was of this World, he was a man. Well, that's what I believe.
This is our heaven, or our hell, and imagining some future kingdom is ok, it's fun maybe, but I don't think it's there.
Scholars can write a ten thousand word dissertation, but do they have to act on those words. The world is flooded with knowledge and opinions.
Christians can quote ten thousand verses, but how many of them live exactly as Jesus suggested?
All I see is mammon
I was out volunteering with the Street Pastors about 3am this morning. We walked in the middle of an angry drunken brawl, searching for a peaceful outcome. No amount of knowledge could help in such a situation, but having a childlike trust in God is a profound help.
That could be in the UK. We have street pasties here. Are you in the UK? :)
 
Perhaps you have a different understanding of what it means to have knowledge or use knowledge, but I would respectfully disagree with your contention.
Before we go out with the Street Pastors, we have a simple prayer. Lord, place in our path the people you need us to see. Lord, help us to do your will, help us and guide us to deal with any situations we encounter. After we place the the night in God's hands, we trust our Lord when he said, "For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”

Every fight we encounter is an unknown, drinks, drugs, broken bottles and large tools have been used as weapons. We don't know if we are dealing with a psychopath amongst a dozen or more people.

We constantly give thanks to our Lord for all the good things that keep happening. We give glory to God, because we recognise good things happen when we trust in him. The dilemma is choosing between knowledge and a childlike trust in our Lord.

This is my understanding, I am not asking anyone to agree with me, we have been doing this for about eighteen years. My2c
 
That could be in the UK. We have street pasties here. Are you in the UK? :)
Yes, we are in Hampshire, and after people called us street pastels, we started giving out fruit pastels. Sometimes when we are in angry situations, we give out a couple of packets, and say share them out with your mates. We have had some interesting outcomes.
 
Yes, we are in Hampshire, and after people called us street pastels, we started giving out fruit pastels. Sometimes when we are in angry situations, we give out a couple of packets, and say share them out with your mates. We have had some interesting outcomes.
All very good. I live in Kent.
I have just noticed that my mobile spell-checked my 'pastors' to 'pasties'. Now I would enjoy a pasty!! :)

There are both 'street' and 'beach' pastors in Whitstable/Herne Bay.
 
(later) I'm not sure that I know what it means to be saved.
In the parts of the Christian world there is quite a confusion about this. Some think that when they say certain formulas and accept with their faith the Lord, they are "saved". But that is not the salvation. To understand what is salvation, one has to know what is the spiritual regeneration. It is a process, in which a man is putting off his old will and old understanding, and putting on a new man, that is a new will and new undestanding. Thus, instead, of loving himself and the world more than God and the neigbour, a man is gradually assuming the new undertanding with regard to those things, and new will together with those virtues. However, those new true and good things are like the continuous loan from the Lord to a man. And then, when a man lives from that new will and new understading, trying to shun evils as sins against God, then eventually, in the other life, he is saved. The process of that salvation is the separation of everything evil and false that were still harassing men in the world, but because a man has been changed in the world as to his main love of his life, main ruling love, which became love to God and to the neigbour, it is then possible in the other life to separate that new will and new undestanding from the old ones, in such a way that they would not essentially bother a man to eternity. It is not that they are separated as burnt by fire, but they are just put to non-active state, while the active state is of the new will and new understanding.
 
In the parts of the Christian world there is quite a confusion about this. Some think that when they say certain formulas and accept with their faith the Lord, they are "saved". But that is not the salvation. To understand what is salvation, one has to know what is the spiritual regeneration. It is a process, in which a man is putting off his old will and old understanding, and putting on a new man, that is a new will and new undestanding. Thus, instead, of loving himself and the world more than God and the neigbour, a man is gradually assuming the new undertanding with regard to those things, and new will together with those virtues. However, those new true and good things are like the continuous loan from the Lord to a man. And then, when a man lives from that new will and new understading, trying to shun evils as sins against God, then eventually, in the other life, he is saved. The process of that salvation is the separation of everything evil and false that were still harassing men in the world, but because a man has been changed in the world as to his main love of his life, main ruling love, which became love to God and to the neigbour, it is then possible in the other life to separate that new will and new undestanding from the old ones, in such a way that they would not essentially bother a man to eternity. It is not that they are separated as burnt by fire, but they are just put to non-active state, while the active state is of the new will and new understanding.
I’m thinking that maybe salvation in the New Testament means freeing us from the sinful side of our nature, so that we can enter God’s kingdom.
 
I have an idea of how pie-in-the-sky salvation was substituted in the place of God’s will being done on earth, as what the gospel of Jesus is about. It might have been from the overseers at the end of the first century importing that idea from gnostics or others who were promoting it,
 
I’m thinking that maybe salvation in the New Testament means freeing us from the sinful side of our nature, so that we can enter God’s kingdom.
In a sense, yes. But it is not possible without our cooperation, thus we need to do our own part, as if by our powers, though in fact it cannot be properly done without the Lord, and as we are doing it, then the Lord is regenerating us, and eventually saves, thus putting the old part as it were to sleep, while we remain in what is "new", in what is His Own with us.
 
I wrote this in another thread, about Jesus:
- I accept Him as God and the Son of God, but not in any way that Christians think that means.
- I accept Him as the fulfilment of every OT prophecy that He applies to Himself, but not in any way that Christians think that means.
- I think that believing in Him is the only way to be saved, but that doesn't mean the same thing to me that it means to any Christians.

Someone said that it looked intriguing to them, so I decided to write about it.
- I think of Him as the presence of God in the same way that some other figures were in the OT. More than that, I think of Him as having all the power and authority of God that there is in the world. Whatever He says is God saying it. Whatever He does is God doing it. That might sound like a Christian belief, but I don't think that He is God in any physical way.
- I think of Him as the Son of God in the sense of being the king that God promised to David, saying "I will be his father and he will be my son." I think of it as an analogy, like a King's son ruling in his place. I don't think that he is God's son in any physical way.
- I think of Him as acting out the role of the suffering servant, like Ezekiel acting out the subjugation of Israel by foreign powers.
- I think of Paul saying that He paid a ransom to redeem us as meaning that His death was like a ransom paid by Israel to free a child of Abraham from captivity so they could return to the kingdom. It played a role somehow in freeing us from captivity to the sinful side of our nature, so that we can enter His kingdom.
- I'm not sure that I know what salvation means. Maybe freedom from slavery to the sinful side of our nature. Whatever it is, I think that it happens when people see God in Jesus, and for that reason want to serve and obey Him as God's regent, learning together to live the way He says to live. Of course that isn't possible in a literal way for most people, but I think that something equivalent to that can happen to anyone, if God so chooses.
 
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I forgot to say what I think about Trinity doctrine. God is telling us to consider what Jesus and the Holy Spirit say and do as Him, God, saying and doing it, but that doesn't mean that they are the same person as Him or as each other. "Three distinct persons" doesn't mean that the Father and the Holy Spirit are persons in any way that would mean in any other context. It doesn't mean that they are distinct from each other in any way that would mean in any other context. It's just an awkward way of saying that no two of them are the same person even though together they are one God. Also, it isn't actually saying anything about their common essence. I think that I'm in agreement about that with at least one of the people who signed the creed at the first council, although they did have to agree that it is not physical, for all of them to sign it.
 
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Very much the 'Social Gospel of Luke', as his gospel is traditionally known.

I'd recommend you check out some of the writings of David Bentley Hart, for his insights into the early community, or koinonia, as it was called.

He's written an essay: Christianity Was Always for the Poor and I've extracted some elements of it here ...

"... there is not, and has never been, a single identifiable thing that we can call “Christianity” except with excruciating generality. From the very first, “the Way” (as it was originally known among its adherents) was like a kind of pluripotential genetic code waiting to be developed by epigenetic forces; and down the centuries, its expressions continuously evolved and diverged into countless unanticipated and ultimately incommiscible breeds.

"This is not to say that the original “genetic” impulse was random, incidentally; I happen to believe, for instance, that the first followers of Jesus of Nazareth truly did have real experiences of him as alive again after his crucifixion, and that that is why their movement did not dissolve upon his death (though this is not the place to argue the point). It is only to say that there are many religious phenomena out there — such as the great mainstream of American white Evangelicalism — to which we apply the word “Christianity” about as meaningfully as we might apply the word “dinosaur” to a sparrow (there have, you see, been a few developments since those days)."


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"In point of fact, the New Testament, alarmingly enough, condemns personal wealth not merely as a moral danger, but as an intrinsic evil. Actually, the texts are so unambiguous on this matter that it requires an almost heroic defiance of the obvious to fail to grasp their import. Admittedly, many translations down the centuries have had an emollient effect on a few of the New Testament’s severer pronouncements. But this is an old story.

"Jesus condemned not only an unhealthy preoccupation with riches, but the getting and keeping of riches as such.

"... (T)he word used in Christian scripture for one of the principal virtues of the new movement: κοινωνία, or koinōnia. The standard translations of the term are usually something along the lines of “fellowship” or even “community,” but a more accurate rendering might very well be “communism.” ... (T)he first converts of the apostolic age in Jerusalem, for example, as the price of becoming Christians, sold all their property and possessions and distributed the proceeds to those in need, and then fed themselves by sharing their resources in common meals (Acts 2:43–46). And this was the pattern, it seems, of the greater community of the Way as it spread out into the Eastern reaches of the empire.

"Certainly, Jesus condemned not only an unhealthy preoccupation with riches, but the getting and keeping of riches as such... the story of the rich young ruler who could not bring himself to part with his fortune for the sake of the Kingdom, and of Christ’s astonishing remark about camels passing more easily through needles’ eyes than rich men through the Kingdom’s gate. But one can look everywhere in the gospels for confirmation of the message.

"Christ clearly means what he says when quoting the prophet Isaiah: he has been anointed by God’s Spirit to preach good tidings to the poor (Luke 4:18). To the prosperous, the tidings he bears are decidedly grim: “But alas for you who are rich, for you have your comfort. Alas for you who are now replete, for you will be hungry. Alas for those now laughing, for you will mourn and lament” (Luke 6:24–25).

"He not only demands that his followers give freely to all who ask from them (Matthew 5:42), and to do so with such prodigality that one hand is ignorant of the other’s largesse (Matthew 6:3); he explicitly forbids storing up earthly wealth — not merely storing it up too obsessively — and allows instead only the hoarding of the treasures of heaven (Matthew 6:19–20). He tells all who would follow him (as he tells the rich young ruler) to sell all their possessions and give the proceeds away as alms, thereby supplying that same heavenly treasury (Luke 12:33), and explicitly states that “no one of you who does not bid farewell to all his own possessions can be my disciple” (Luke 14:33). It is truly amazing how rarely Christians down the centuries have failed to notice that these counsels are stated, quite decidedly, as commands. Certainly the texts are not in any way unclear on the matter. After all, as Mary says, part of the saving promise of the Gospel is that the Lord “has filled the hungry with good things and sent the rich away empty” (Luke 1:53).

"James perhaps states the matter most clearly:
Come now, you who are rich, weep, howling out at the miseries that are coming for you: your riches have spoiled and your garments have become moth-eaten; your gold and silver have corroded, and their corrosion will serve as testimony against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have kept treasure in the last days. Look: the wages of the workers who have reaped your lands, which have been unfairly held back by you, clamor aloud, and the outcries of those who have reaped have entered the ears of the Lord Sabaoth. You lived on the earth in dainty luxury and self-indulgence. You have gorged your hearts on a day of slaughter. You have condemned — have murdered — the upright man; he does not oppose you. (5:1–6)

"And this passage is merely the climax of a moral crescendo that swells throughout the epistle, beginning with James’s assurance to his readers that God has “chosen the destitute within the cosmos, as rich in faithfulness and as heirs of the Kingdom he has promised to those who love him,” while the rich are, as an entire class, oppressors and persecutors and blasphemers of Christ’s holy name (2:5–7).

"It was all much easier, of course — this nonchalance toward private possessions — for those first generations of Christians. They tended to see themselves as transient tenants within a rapidly vanishing world, refugees passing lightly through a history not their own.

"Near the end of the first century, the manual of Christian life known as the Didache instructed believers to share all things in common and to think of nothing as private property."


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Thomas, Jesus never asked something he won't do as well.

The image of Jesus as born in a poor or middle class family in Bethlehem is not accurate.

Actually his family was wealthy. His adoptive father Joseph was a contractor.

When you read the family tree of Jesus, from his father and mother sides he is descendant of David the king. You know, when you inherit noble blood you also inherit wealth.

And not only wealth but influence. The Tractate Sanhedrin implies that Jesus was condemned to be hung because apostasy. In reality the punishment for apostasy was to be stones, but because Jesus was from a family related to the government or novelty the punishment was changed.

The clothes of Jesus must have been of good quality, dressing like a priest very good looking.

Jesus must have been from a rich family because tradition in Israel recognizes solely the wealthy as a prophet. You can read it, like Elijah, Elisha and others having servants and/or students. Same John the Baptists as a son of a priest of the temple, he wasn't a poor guy, on the contrary, like today, only people with money can afford clothes made of leather, good leather. A priest of the temple was a wealthy person, then his son as well was wealthy.

Then, when Jesus came out from home to start his preaching, he left his wealthy status and lived well anyway thanks to his friends and family friends who also were very wealthy, and they helped him a lot. Even after his death came one of his friends to donate the sepulcher. Not a cheap one, of course.

Now, you read the dialogue of Jesus with the young rich man. He told him to obey this and that, to do this and that. The rich young man responded that he did that already. The Jesus asked him to do what he (Jesus) did before start preaching, which is to abandon his wealth and after that to follow him. Look, "to follow him". This is not spiritually but physically.

The rich young man thought twice about it. He wasn't ready, ha wasn't committed to walk that step. Nothing wrong with that.

But what is important to know is that Jesus didn't ask to the other a sacrifice that he (Jesus) himself won't do.

The case of the death of husband and wife when they lied to the congregation about giving all their good to the assembly, the punishment was because their lie and not because they were rich or trying to keep part of their wealth. In the first century, when persecution against Christians was a la mode, in those times having a property wasn't recommendable and the believers lived practically as nomads. Such practice of selling all goods and live without private property is not necessary to be practiced today in Christian churches because no government is persecuting Christians, unless we talk of other countries when such events are happening.

In other words, there is nothing wrong to be rich, nothing wrong at all. What is considered not right is to keep the richness for himself and not sharing part of it. What Jesus recommends is not to be anxious in getting rich or obtaining goods and similar. Being a Christian one can work hard or make good investments and get rich, enjoy the money, buy expensive house, luxury car, private airplane, etc. Just not to forget helping the orphan, the widow, the sick, the prisoner in jail, etc.

Christianity is for everybody, for everybody who wants to follow Jesus.
 
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