Bloodlines Vs Belief

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by Basstian, Mar 3, 2005.

  1. Basstian

    Basstian In Search

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    Being a Christian I had to accept and choose this faith I do not believe I was born a Christian. I have noticed this is not the case such as Jews who accept the name and bloodline but not the faith. I am not sure on Muslim as far as bloodline vs belief.

    My question is this do you feel that just being born into your heritage Jew Muslim or Christian is enough to secure "salvation" ?

    Or what claim do you have to your heritage with out "faith"?

    Please if the words "salvation" or "faith" are to Christian apply them to your religion/culture the best you can and answer that way.

    I am curious and mean no offence to anybody of any background by asking:D
     
  2. DrewJMore

    DrewJMore Logical Demonstrator

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    A very interesting question.
    Were your parents Christian?
    If so, you must consider that nurture played a role in your "acceptance."
    If not, how were you so influenced?

    A simple answer to the original question is that faith is paramount. However, it would be difficult not to have some faith in any religious paradigm provided during one's formative years.
     
  3. Bandit

    Bandit New Member

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    i think this is a bit different for everyone. I know 2 Jewish people who were raised in Orthox Judaism, but accepted Jesus as savior. It was very hard for them for they were ridiculed for quite some time and not accepted by there families. One lady cried sadly as she told me her change in beliefs and how hard it was with her family and she told the story with her photo family album.

    I came up in a very strong bible atmosphere with teaching for spiritual matters and preparation for every day living, so I got it quite early in life. However, I still tested the waters of a few different religions and they did not even compare to the truth I have found in the bible. The ones I am leary of are the ones who make up there own bibles that differ from what was first delivered.
    So I think there is something to the way we are raised. I am actually very thankful and blessed for the teaching I was given. Others completely rebelled against everything and got into a lot of trouble with the law of the land.
    I rebelled a lot too, but somehow there was a hedge about me, that only allowed me to go in knee deep and get out.

    Some people complicate things more than needs to be and rely and seek questions that cannot be answered by anyone. Others just do not care about anything. I see bits and pieces of truth in all religions, but they lean on just the little bit instead of taking the whole thing. The far right or the far left is not where I want to be. They are the ones who will always point fingers. However if it goes against the bible I have to side with what the bible is teaching because I believe it is the true Word of the Lord and it does work.

    I think we just have to let everyone do whatever they choose, because we are going to do it anyway. Also, when some get a certain teaching wether right or wrong, they lean toward that instead of searching them all.

    My beliefs are pretty much the same as what I grew up with but there are a few things that have changed. I think that comes with understanding through time and maturing.
     
  4. dauer

    dauer Active Member

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    Well, Judaism doesn't suggest that this is true. It's deeds that matter. Traditionally the real difference is that Jews have to live up to a higher standard than non-Jews. But at the same time, there's no hell, so it's not as if someone needs to be saved from going there. Gehenna is a place I think most would willingly go if God willed it.

    Well, my beliefs are definitely not traditional, but at the same time they are very bound to Judaism. And my life is very Jewish. I find meaning in Jewish practice and also Jewish religious paradigms. I have no problem finding meaning in the myths even though I don't think they're historically true.

    There really is no Jewish word for the Christian concept of salvation which makes interfaith dialogue about salvation a little difficult. There's no question in Judaism that what matters most with all people, Jew and gentile, is deeds.

    Faith in Hebrew is emunah, is related to amen. It's like an affirmation, a trust. Goes very deep.

    Dauer
     
  5. Bandit

    Bandit New Member

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    with the NT law the works come automatically by way of the faith/trust. IOW the laws are not burdensome but a delight and wonderful to achieve and no one is above another but everyone is like a servant for each other.

    i think it takes both faith and works. for some reason some people think only one or the other.

    i know some who base everything on outward appearance, like the amish and old dunkards and holiness people.

    so what/where is Gehenna about Dauer?
     
  6. Basstian

    Basstian In Search

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    My Mom was a Christian and did her best to impart her beliefs on me.
    My Dad was a drunkard and did his best to impart his beliefs on me.

    I could have went either way It was only by Choosing Christ because He chose me that I became a Christian.

    On a side note I now attend church with my mother and provide full time health care for my father who after years of living that life style is in very bad shape. He quit drinking but sadly to late to enjoy health in his twilight. He now reminds me to pray with Him before I leave each night even though "he doesnt believe" :D
     
  7. dauer

    dauer Active Member

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    That's not how Judaism works, but when we don't have much kavvanah (attentiveness to God) we still have obligations to fulfill. There is still emphasis on kavvanah.

    None of the information about the afterlife is written in stone. It's more like inspired speculation. Gehenna is a place of transformation. After being judged, sins against mitzvot, the soul either goes directly to gan eden or first goes to gehenna. In gehenna they might have to face all of the wrongs they've done, or just be in the presence of God with the knowledge of all of the wrongs they've done. Or something. Whatever happens, eventually they've transformed enough to be able to go to Gan Eden. Only the truly wicked don't go to Gan Eden and their souls are extinguished. But what makes someone truly wicked would have to be extremely horrible, and then they would have to be unable to change in Gehenna. It's a little like purgatory.

    I'm not familiar with the internet abbreviation IOW. What does it mean?

    Dauer
     
  8. Bandit

    Bandit New Member

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    IOW In Other Words:)

    this is kind of how I am seeing that too. someone who is etremely horrible gets extinguished, or zapped out of existance. Or something like that. and the other is some kind of transformation.
     
  9. DrewJMore

    DrewJMore Logical Demonstrator

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    Bittersweet and uplifting that your family has found healing.
    There are crucial truths in all religions: the most redemptive is forgiveness.
     
  10. truthseeker

    truthseeker New Member

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    I call myself Christian because it is the wisdom of Jesus that continues to bring balance into my life. However, I think all of the paths have a point. I guess if you don't say that what you believe is the true religion then it doesn't have a shelf in the Religion Hall of Fame.
    I was born into the Jehovah's Witnesses sect. They are disciplined people, nonetheless a sad bunch. What gives anybody the right to take an established doctrine and switch it up to what they believe and claim that their version is the truth instead? I was scared to even think wrong when I was growing up. When I was 20, I began my search on the truth of religion. There is something very liberating about education, folks. Man will sometimes use religion to dominate - for man can be exceedingly evil once he notices his own power.
    Being born into a religion? Nah. We are all cultured into some understanding but God gives us our own will and the ability to reason. It is breaking away from the bounds of uniformity that makes us a universal people and not a race or a denomination. Whether you call it Nirvana or Heaven we're trying to get to the same place.
     
  11. Basstian

    Basstian In Search

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    My thoughts in posting this thread is to gain an understanding on how heritage affects religious belief. Being in the U.S. in this day and age Christianity is not part of Heritage unless parents are devout and teaching from a young age. Where as my understanding is that in other religions do not suffer this same problem in Say a person of Jewish decent will claim to be a Jew and an athiest at the same time and be correct. I have never known a Christian athiest wouldnt make sence.

    Point being I wonder as I raise my children in Christianity if I can find away to instill Heritage that will last generations so that even if they do not live Christianity they will look at it as the faith of choice and may even turn to it in times when they seek spiritual help. Something that has been acomplished in other religions by bloodlines.
     
  12. dauer

    dauer Active Member

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    Well I think the reason this is so is because Judaism is a tribal religion, like being Cherokee (I think I've mentioned this before.) If someone becomes Buddhist who is Jewish, at some level they're still going to consider themselves Jewish because Judaism entails more than just belief (what you have referred to as bloodlines.) I read an essay by Ma Jaya Sati Bhagavati(director of an Ashram helping the poor and sick) about a time Zalman Shachter-Shalomi decided to stay with her for Shabbos and she was forced to confront her Jewish past. Nice article, and it seems she had to face much more than that. So now she's still Hindu but she lights candles every friday night, no matter where she is. Because Judaism is a tribal religion a shift in both belief and practice cannot usually purge the sense of Jewishness completely. The cultural/tribal/familial aspect remains.

    But it seems a little out of character for Christianity, which is so focused on belief, to do the same. If a person does not have any Christian beliefs, and perhaps if they have Hindu beliefs instead of Christian beliefs, can they still be considered Christian on any level?

    Dauer
     
  13. dauer

    dauer Active Member

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    Something I forgot to say is it's not really about blood. A convert does not have Jewish blood, but they and all of their children are Jewish. They aren't even considered a convert, just a Jew. An atheist Jew won't really care how a more traditional Jew defines a Jew (meaning having a Jewish mother) so for them it's entirely cultural. Even taking away the religious aspects, the same types of things that a person might attach to for being Irish or Italian will still remain. And some of these things, within Judaism, are completely cultural because there are cultural differences between Jews from different places.

    Dauer
     
  14. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Kindest Regards, Basstian!
    You do ask intriguing questions!

    I think a lot of what you are describing as bloodlines occurs because so many faiths and traditions are handed down geneologically, whereas Christianity by its nature is supposedly open to all. Of course, in the US with religious "freedom", it also works the other way, and it seems more easily to find those that convert *from* Christianity to other paths. It is not mine to judge whether or not this is right or wrong, good or bad, provided the individual is living the truth in their daily lives.

    I was not raised particularly in any specific faith, my mom was a superficial Catholic, my dad was completely non-observant. After my folks separated when I was still young, mom did take us to a couple of different Protestant churches, the one in particular I am quite thankful for having attended. My views I suppose grew out of my own search as a young adult, and focused on Christianity as the mainstream path available to me in this country. Even saying all of this, since I was a child I have had certain heartfelt thoughts, maybe an outside guidance although it was never named, a certain communion with nature. Especially as a child I could commune with animals, and I still stand in awe at the wonder of nature. These things are not taught, certainly not by Christianity. It was when I learned of my Native-American ancestry that it began to make more sense to me. Perhaps this is the "bloodline" thing you mention? At any rate, perhaps the bloodline thing is not the important part, but rather the wisdom imparted by the path that is most relevant to your children. I believe the Bible says something like "teach a child in the way that is right, and when (s)he grows old (s)he will return to it." Your children will remember you not so much for what you say, but for what you do. That is what will carry through the blood to the next generations. :)

    Shalom.
     
  15. Basstian

    Basstian In Search

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    I can relate to the Nature Indian Blood myself My Grandfather Raised on a reservation in Oklahoma handed me traditions I still have to this day. A combo of Indian/Christian beliefs. I Hunt Fish and respect Nature thankful for the bounty provided and could more than likely leave all this High Tech and survive thanks to Him. My riding and horse training skills are handed down. Without even considering where this came from I have handed this knowledge to my sons as well.
    Thinking in this light I guess I will also hand Christianity down. Though It will ultimately be my childrens choice when they mature. I can and do pray that they hold a respect for the God I serve. Maybe just maybe it will be as powerful an effect as "bloodline" that keeps my future generations in the faith.

    Thank you all for a very informative thread
    Peace
     

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