Capital Punishment

dauer

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To me it seems that the ones we end up giving the death penalty are really very sick in one way or another. We could research ways to rehabilitate them, although not necessarily with the future goal of reintigration into society.

If this is not possible, perhaps the death penalty can be viewed as a mercy killing for these people, like shooting Old Yeller.

I don't advocate this type of killing but I think the mental health of the typical death row inmate due to either nature or nurture or both should be taken into account. We assume too often that free will is granted with no strings attached.

I was watching a television show about a man who was a model citizen in a jail, had been given life for the murder of a person he thought was dealing drugs to his children. But he was really planning his escape the whole time. He had abducted the warden's wife and brainwashed her so that she believed he was actually a good person. And they lived together for many years before he was finally caught. In the interview I was watching he was very together and calm and almost seemed kind, but in a very sick way that was revolting. He smiled warmly the whole time, made references to Jesus and the apostles that were almost wholesome were it not for the fact that he was justifying his abduction of this woman, so this I think is what needs to be examined. How sick are the people we want to kill? Were they born that way? If not, how did they get that way? What obligation, if any, does society have to them?

And on another level, what preemptive services can we develop for identifying and working with these people so that mass murderers and other occupants of death roe appear less often in society?


Dauer
 

path_of_one

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Geist said:
Wheres God when your begging for your life at the end?

Hes not there to help you until its too late and you've died or maybe not even then!

Relgion is a form of control used to keep things the way the poitcians and other higher powered people use to control the masses.
I don't beg for my life. I have been in a situation where I could have been killed, and I stood up for myself. Fearing death results in spiritual stagnation. Fearing the loss of ego also results in spiritual stagnation, at least for me. I seek to transcend attachments to this life and even to myself. I do not worship God because I expect anything. I worship God because I was already given this moment right now, and that is an amazing gift.

I have faced death and continue to meditate on death, and I'm now thoroughly comfortable with it. Working with the dying in hospice helped me understand death a great deal, and I highly recommend it for others. Working with dying people was enlightening and they gave me gifts of wisdom for which I am very grateful.

I have also had some mystical experiences in which I experienced God and lost my body (my consciousness experienced non-corporeality). These were spontaneous experiences and not induced by meditation or whatever. I just see them as gifts. I can't wait to lose my body when I die. It was really fantastic and freeing, and I felt a transcendence and unity with God that is very difficult in ordinary physical life. I have had what some people think of as past life memories as well, and these were also spontaneous and began when I was very young. Who knows? Maybe reincarnation does happen. I choose to not attach too much to any one idea of the afterlife, because that just isn't the point in my spiritual path.

In short, not everyone considers death a bad thing. It is a transition, not an end. Furthermore, if it is an end, what difference does it make to us? We cease to exist. Either way, I don't see why I should fear it. Yes, the pain associated with death is unpleasant, but I've been sick and in pain before. It's just part of life and suffering contains its own lessons.

As for religion, I have no religion. I am not into organized religion, it just isn't something that helps me a lot in my spiritual path. I tried many different religious organizations out, but they just are not for me. I'm a very solitude and nature oriented person, and I feel closest to God when I am out in His Creation alone and in stillness. I am a deeply spiritual person, and I always have been, but my spirituality has nothing whatsoever to do with being controlled. In fact, my spiritual path has a lot to do with liberation from society and cultural bias, equality of all life, and taking personal responsibility for one's actions.
 

Geist

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Faithfulservant said:
How sad.. No wonder your so depressed.
Excuse me but you have never even spoken to me before now, you have no right to judge me in any way shape or form.

daucer said:
To me it seems that the ones we end up giving the death penalty are really very sick in one way or another. We could research ways to rehabilitate them, although not necessarily with the future goal of reintigration into society.
Then whats the point in it at all?

Its a waist of time, money and will power. If they don't go back out into socity might aswell kill them.
 

dauer

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There are other people who can't be a part of society for one reason or other like the severely mentally challenged. Would you advocate killing them off as well instead of taking care of them?

What do you feel each individual human owes to other humans, and what do you feel the collective of humanity owes to individual humans?
 

Geist

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dauer said:
There are other people who can't be a part of society for one reason or other like the severely mentally challenged. Would you advocate killing them off as well instead of taking care of them?
But we do though! I see mentally challenged people everywhere!

What do you feel each individual human owes to other humans, and what do you feel the collective of humanity owes to individual humans?
I don't belive a human owes another human anything.
 

dauer

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But we do though! I see mentally challenged people everywhere!

I mean the severely mentally challenged, the ones who can't leave group homes and hospitals because they're so sick, who are supported primarily by the state.

I don't belive a human owes another human anything.

So if the world ran the way you wanted it to, what would be the prevailing ethic?
 

Geist

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dauer said:
So if the world ran the way you wanted it to, what would be the prevailing ethic?
i don't know i haven't ever thought of what my own morals are never mind the rest of the world.
 

Faithfulservant

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Geist said:
Excuse me but you have never even spoken to me before now, you have no right to judge me in any way shape or form.
You're mistaken in thinking it was a judgement..I feel sorry for you. Even if I have not personally spoken with you Ive read most of your posts.. which are in depth into your private life and personal thoughts and opinions.. so close enough.
 

Geist

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Faithfulservant said:
You're mistaken in thinking it was a judgement..I feel sorry for you. Even if I have not personally spoken with you Ive read most of your posts.. which are in depth into your private life and personal thoughts and opinions.. so close enough.

I don't need your pity save it for someone who wants it. And it isn't close enough you bearly even know me you can't just place me in a specific place in your mind just because you've read a handful of my posts.
 

Faithfulservant

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Feeling compassion for someone isnt the same as pity. Being concerned about someone isnt the same as being judgemental. I know enough about you to know that you hurt yourself.. that speaks volumes.

Sorry for hijacking this thread.
 

Geist

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Faithfulservant said:
Feeling compassion for someone isnt the same as pity. Being concerned about someone isnt the same as being judgemental. I know enough about you to know that you hurt yourself.. that speaks volumes.

Sorry for hijacking this thread.
You said and I quote:
How sad.. No wonder your so depressed.

Its basicly the same thing. You judged me by assuming I am depressed I never in any of my posts said I was depressed. And I believe I posted telling people that I cut myself thats probably common knowladge.
 

Faithfulservant

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Geist said:
Wheres God when your begging for your life at the end?

Hes not there to help you until its too late and you've died or maybe not even then!

Relgion is a form of control used to keep things the way the poitcians and other higher powered people use to control the masses.
Yes I found this sad... and I also hold to my opinion that you're depressed. Still its not a judgement...
 

Geist

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Faithfulservant said:
Yes I found this sad... and I also hold to my opinion that you're depressed. Still its not a judgement...
But you are because your assuming I'm depressed. And don't find it sad a good thing comes from every situation no matter how small this good thing is its still good.
 

Awaiting_the_fifth

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Meanwhile, back on topic......

I do not agree with capital punishment, or any kind of retribution. I believe in the law of Karma which tells me (I dont know what it tells you) that it is wrong for you to kill, and if you do so, you will suffer in future lives. If you kill a friend of mine and I kill you out of retribution then I have killed and I too will suffer in future lives. If, as a result of my bad karma I am reborn into a miserable life where I am persecuted, I may become angry and strike back at my persecutors, killing them. Their friends will then kill me and they too will suffer in future lives. They will all be born into similarly persecuted lives and in response they will kill, and in response to this others will kill them and still more people will suffer in future lives.

This is the reality that I see in which suffering only results in more suffering. The only way to end the suffering is to forgive those who hurt you and not strike back. End the spiral of suffering.

I encourage everyone to forgive someone today, and make this reality a little bit more bearable for everyone.
 

path_of_one

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Yes. I find it interesting that whether it is based on a belief in karma, or in Jesus' teachings, the result can be the same. Forgive, and you will be forgiven...
 

Vajradhara

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path_of_one said:
Yes. I find it interesting that whether it is based on a belief in karma, or in Jesus' teachings, the result can be the same. Forgive, and you will be forgiven...
not just that...

forgive and forgiveness have the potential to change our world for the better... to a more peaceful time of existence for all sentient beings.

i think that it is hard to estimate the impact of forgiveness upon individuals, groups and socities.
 

lunamoth

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I admit that I have not read this whole thread, just the few last posts, which I have to agree are "right on." Forgiveness is key to transformation of individuals, societies, the world for the better and for obtaining peace.

Justice, well justice is hard and skimming through the posts here I see that at least a few others agree. Not to say that we shouldn't fight against social injustice and oppression where we find it but as others have pointed out one person's justice is another's oppression in many cases. But not always. As long as we are all less than perfect, forgiveness is the more righteous policy. I guess that's why Gandhi found that justice could really only be achieved by non-violent means.

lunamoth
 

Geist

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Awaiting_the_fifth said:
I believe in the law of Karma which tells me (I dont know what it tells you) that it is wrong for you to kill, and if you do so, you will suffer in future lives. If you kill a friend of mine and I kill you out of retribution then I have killed and I too will suffer in future lives. If, as a result of my bad karma I am reborn into a miserable life where I am persecuted, I may become angry and strike back at my persecutors, killing them. Their friends will then kill me and they too will suffer in future lives. They will all be born into similarly persecuted lives and in response they will kill, and in response to this others will kill them and still more people will suffer in future lives.
life is suffering..It might not be for you but for me and many other people it is! And unfortunatly many people don't believe in justice unless there is retribution because people feed off pain and others suffering and don't deny it because its true whether you see it on there faces is a diffreant matter.
 
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