Capital Punishment

Silverbackman

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Quahom1 said:
I'm not sure you have your numbers correct. In thirty years Hussein has overseen the death of over 3,000,000 people. 1,500,000 were his own people, including over 5,000 civilians in a single day (as a test of chemical weapons, and a means to eradicate Kurds from his land).

In three years 35,000 have been killed in Iraq, including 6,000 civilians 2,300 US military.

Can you cite a source for where you got these numbers. I don't doubt the numbers being correct but I just want to see a site that says these exact number ;).
 

Curios Mike

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I do not believe all should be put to death it depends on the murder, and the murderer. If say one guy kills another mans family then the other man tracks him down and kills him. I dont think he should be killed, becuase he doesnt present himself a danger to humanity, but only to the man who killed his. But he should do some time or something. But if the other killer managed to kill the man of the house, yes Who's to say he want do it again.

What about the victim or victoms who cannot answer this question? What about the future victoms that will be killed if society does not stop the killer? If A bear comes out of the woods and eats a woman, wouldnt we kill it. Why? Becuase its fear of man is gone. They become a danger not just to the 1 they killed but to others who may stumble upon their path.

Do I like the fact people are exectuted, why would I. But why did they kill? Did i like the fact they killed some one, or a group of someones, of course not, and that is why I am for capital punishment.

I'm not sure I totaly believe ( but yeh kinda sorta) in what one said, but if we are all apart of one collective, then as our own body fights impurities in the body so should society do the same. As far as those that pose a threat to others who would not cuase anyoneelse any harm.
 

Quahom1

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Curios Mike said:
I do not believe all should be put to death it depends on the murder, and the murderer. If say one guy kills another mans family then the other man tracks him down and kills him. I dont think he should be killed, becuase he doesnt present himself a danger to humanity, but only to the man who killed his. But he should do some time or something. But if the other killer managed to kill the man of the house, yes Who's to say he want do it again.

What about the victim or victoms who cannot answer this question? What about the future victoms that will be killed if society does not stop the killer? If A bear comes out of the woods and eats a woman, wouldnt we kill it. Why? Becuase its fear of man is gone. They become a danger not just to the 1 they killed but to others who may stumble upon their path.

Do I like the fact people are exectuted, why would I. But why did they kill? Did i like the fact they killed some one, or a group of someones, of course not, and that is why I am for capital punishment.

I'm not sure I totaly believe ( but yeh kinda sorta) in what one said, but if we are all apart of one collective, then as our own body fights impurities in the body so should society do the same. As far as those that pose a threat to others who would not cuase anyoneelse any harm.

Capital punishment is normally reserved for Murder in the first degree, or pre-meditated murder. Second degree and third degree or (a crime of passion or negligent homicide) do not normally warrant the death penalty. This is because one is due to temporary insanity, and the other is untintentional.

There are exceptions to the rule:

War, on the other hand is "sanctioned" homicide, wherein both governemts agree to allow its citizen soldiers to kill the enemy. However, even in war, the deliberate killing of innocent and/or unarmed people is murder, and subjects the killer to capital punishment.

It is also reserved in the military for desertion in the face of the enemy, as well as espianage, and sabatage, for good reason...the perpetrator is aiding and abetting the enemy which kills people. An officer on the battlefield is issued a pistol, not for self defense, but to stop a soldier who breaks from the battle line and runs...so serious is this offense that the soldier is tried convicted and executed by one man/woman, within a matter of seconds. Cowardice before the enemy can not be tolerated, as it devistates the morale of the troops, and brings disgrace to the nation the soldier is representing.

my thoughts

v/r

Q
 

wil

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While I understand the difference stated between war 'santioned homicide' or genocide even...and capitol punishment, both are acts of vengence and satisfying the ego's need for power over others....imho

in regards to Iraq
11 October 2003
"In a major victory for the White House, the Senate early Friday voted 77-23 to authorize President Bush to attack Iraq if Saddam Hussein refuses to give up weapons of mass destruction as required by U.N. resolutions.
Hours earlier, the House approved an identical resolution, 296-133. "
I agree, however we are a country which normally blantanly ignore UN resolutions and should similar ones be put on us would go to war over it at the drop of a hat. The WMD discussion is a very sore spot in this administrations intelligence abilities and has been admitted to have been grossly exagerated.
Al-Queda attacked, and Saddam Hussein promised the Americans the mother of all battles. Japan attacked and Germany declared war on the US. Like WWII, none of us know the depth of knowledge the US had prior to the war. We do know some was faulty, and some was true, and some was speculation (that later on...year later), proved true.
The complete opposite has happened here...the fictitious ties of Iraq to Al Queda have disappeared the loose threads exist but are nothing to hold onto. However there are more Al Queda cells and operatives in Iraq now then there were before the war as that is where we are....so moving the focus from the US to the middle east has been a highly successful operation.

Quote:

How many of the attackers were Saudi, and what punishment have we meted?

15 of the 19 were Saudis. However they did not claim to be fighting for Saudi Arabia. There battle cry was for al-Queda. What punishment is being metted against al-Queda?...look around the globe. We fight an enemy with no borders, and a shadowy form of government.
I'm not sure you have your numbers correct. In thirty years Hussein has overseen the death of over 3,000,000 people. 1,500,000 were his own people, including over 5,000 civilians in a single day (as a test of chemical weapons, and a means to eradicate Kurds from his land).

In three years 35,000 have been killed in Iraq, including 6,000 civilians 2,300 US military.
Surely you can't count the Iranians we encouraged and funded Sadam to fight for years after our puppet the Shaw lost power? I'd also like to see the foundation for your figures. My understanding is our admitted civilian count is higher... During Gulf 1 we encouraged and promised backing for an uprising from the south...we promised weapons and our helicopters to back the rebelion against Sadam..then as they attacked and moved north we pulled out and left them to be slaughtered....those deaths are on our hands...(no need to discuss our ambassador telling Iraq before that war that we would have no issues with their border disputes or taking back Quwait) In addition our Pentagon has confirmed that the gas that took out the Kurds was Iranian...a gas that Sadam never had access to, and can no longer be blamed for (or we would use it in his trial!)
 

Rouge47

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My personal opinion on Capital Punishment:

Let your God or Leader sort out the black and white, not a bunch of crazy politics. They screw everything up and even kill the innocent. Why? Blaim the US Capitalist Society...or Canada...which ever works best for you.:D

PJ
 

truthseeker

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And indeed, there is nothing new under the sun or beyond.

History repeats itself, and often in vengeance. Keep your head stuck in the sky so you can't see what's going on here on the ground.
 

Quahom1

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truthseeker said:
And indeed, there is nothing new under the sun or beyond.

History repeats itself, and often in vengeance. Keep your head stuck in the sky so you can't see what's going on here on the ground.

Not so certain of that. There has never been (in recorded history) a nation quite like that of the United States, nor the success of its form of government.

By all accounts, it should have died an early death...but something went wrong with the experiement, and it succeeded. One of the strongest factors of the success of the United States as a nation, is that the checks and balances built into the system always seem to bring it back to even keel. Sometimes take longer than other times, but the system and nation rights itself. America's greatest strengths are balance and tolerance.

Capital punishment is nothing new to the world or to nations, as it as been going on since the beginning of civilization. However the US has invoked such drastic punishment far far less than most other civilizations of comparative size, and only after lengthy, drawn out legal processes.

No, even the Bible, points out (if one interprets Revelation certain ways), that the US rise to power, was very different from any other major "world" power's rise. That our ways are different and our reverence for the sacredness of God is different.

my thoughts.

v/r

Q
 

Kaldayen

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Paul James said:
Blaim the US Capitalist Society...or Canada...which ever works best for you.

Southpark can blame Canada for a lot of things but not for that ;) Canada has abolished capital punishment since 1976. Although the crime rate is similar to the U.S. one, the homicide rate is much lower. I guess CP doesn't help there.

Stats there : http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/011218/d011218b.htm

I really believe that no one should be able to take someone else's life, be they individuals or governments. For me, capital punishment is the direct legal expression of "an eye for an eye". It doesn't cure anything, it simply kills another person...

Quahom said:
No, even the Bible, points out (if one interprets Revelation certain ways), that the US rise to power, was very different from any other major "world" power's rise. That our ways are different and our reverence for the sacredness of God is different.

My question is out of topic but... do you mean the US rise is written somewhere in Revelation? Could you point me where? I'm curious.
___
Kal
 

Quahom1

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Kaldayen said:
Southpark can blame Canada for a lot of things but not for that ;) Canada has abolished capital punishment since 1976. Although the crime rate is similar to the U.S. one, the homicide rate is much lower. I guess CP doesn't help there.

Stats there : http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/011218/d011218b.htm

I really believe that no one should be able to take someone else's life, be they individuals or governments. For me, capital punishment is the direct legal expression of "an eye for an eye". It doesn't cure anything, it simply kills another person...



My question is out of topic but... do you mean the US rise is written somewhere in Revelation? Could you point me where? I'm curious.
___
Kal

Hey Kal,

There is speculation, that the US is the last beast rising from the ground instead of the sea. and bearing new horns, not the big stuff. We (the US according to some reports), are the new beast from the ground. It is in Daniel, and in Revelation. And it does not neccesarrily mean only the US, but rather North America (that includes Canada, and Mexico...).

Why? Relatively speaking the North western hemisphere did not develop from conquest, but from peaceful exploration and people trying to start a new beginning, different from the old ways...some say that does describe the North American Continent and only that continent, historically.

v/r

Q

EDIT: I should rephrase: North America is the new, young "beast"...my american arrogance preceded me... sorry.
 

Ciel

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Then it would appear it is the US with it's head in the sky..........
.....to live above the law one must be honest.
 

Pathless

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Quahom1 said:
Relatively speaking the North western hemisphere did not develop from conquest, but from peaceful exploration and people trying to start a new beginning, different from the old ways...some say that does describe the North American Continent and only that continent, historically.

Getting off topic here, but--OH MY GOD, Quahom, do you really believe that America was founded on 'peaceful exploration' and 'did not develop from conquest'??! Western civilization in all of North America is rooted in the genocide and subjugation of the indigenous tribes that lived here. The colonists wiped out the tribes with disease, guns, and brutal land-rape. The ones that were left were herded into restricted plots of lands and repressed, forcefully and violently forbidden to live as they had lived--peacefully and sustainably, I might add--for thousands of years.*

Oh, but you did qualify your ridiculously skewed claim by the words, "relatively speaking." Relative to what, I wonder? :eek:

Also, I'm confused, because you, as a Christian, seem to be taking pride in the fact that you believe your beloved nation to be the fulfilment of the Biblical prophecy of the Beast. If I remember Revelation correctly--and I read it and re-read it many times as a teenager obsessed with the idea of cataclysmic end times and obscure symbolism--the Beast is not something that Christians would tend to want to associate themselves or their own country with. Is it not associated with the anti-Christ, killing, the gnashing of teeth, the rending of flesh, hellfire, and destrutction? :confused:

:confused: Time and time again, I am simply dumbfounded by your perceptions and justifications. :confused:

*Please see the excerpt from Thom Hartmann's The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight, posted in this forum (click here) for more on this.
 
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Quahom1

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Pathless said:
Getting off topic here, but--OH MY GOD, Quahom, do you really believe that America was founded on 'peaceful exploration' and 'did not develop from conquest'??! Western civilization in all of North America is rooted in the genocide and subjugation of the indigenous tribes that lived here. The colonists wiped out the tribes with disease, guns, and brutal land-rape. The ones that were left were herded into restricted plots of lands and repressed, forcefully and violently forbidden to live as they had lived--peacefully and sustainably, I might add--for thousands of years.

Oh, but you did qualify your ridiculously skewed claim by the words, "relatively speaking." Relative to what, I wonder? :eek:

Also, I'm confused, because you, as a Christian, seem to be taking pride in the fact that you believe your beloved nation to be the fulfilment of the Biblical prophecy of the Beast. If I remember Revelation correctly--and I read it and re-read it many times as a teenager obsessed with the idea of cataclysmic end times and obscure symbolism--the Beast is not something that Christians would tend to want to associate themselves or their own country with. Is it not associated with the anti-Christ, killing, the gnashing of teeth, the rending of flesh, hellfire, and destrutction? :confused:

:confused: Time and time again, I am simply dumbfounded by your perceptions and justifications. :confused:

Compared relatively to the histories of most "major" nations' beginnings. Yes.
 

Quahom1

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Ciel said:
Then it would appear it is the US with it's head in the sky..........
.....to live above the law one must be honest.

Yep, keep honestly looking for the stars at night and the bright blue skys of day. No one can live above the law. Honest or not.
 

Quahom1

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Ciel said:
Then how can it be that the US sees it's self as above the law of the UN?

First of all the UN is no bench mark by which to judge one's self by or even a nation by.

Second of all, it was the United States that made the mistake of creating the UN, twice, first under the title of League of Nations in 1918, then under the title of United Nations after WWII. But everybody makes mistakes, even extremely foolish ones...must be because we were looking up into the sky, and had our heads in the clouds of hopes and dreams...
 

Ciel

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Maybe God feels the same way.

A sad waste of good human intention by many who propose peace among nations.
 

Kaldayen

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Quahom1 said:
First of all the UN is no bench mark by which to judge one's self by or even a nation by.

Second of all, it was the United States that made the mistake of creating the UN, twice, first under the title of League of Nations in 1918, then under the title of United Nations after WWII. But everybody makes mistakes, even extremely foolish ones...must be because we were looking up into the sky, and had our heads in the clouds of hopes and dreams...

Greetings Quahom,

If that was a mistake, I believe that was the best mistake the US ever made. The UN isn't perfect, far from it. It's only a first step (well, actually a second step) toward a workable world order. I don't think the US population sees it as a mistake, otherwise the governement wouldn't finance it and try so hard to make it seem like they agree with it. They would simply get out of it.

I don't see hopes and dreams only in the clouds, we aren't on hell here. The dreams are accessible and it's with little steps like the UN we'll eventually get somewhere... :rolleyes: When did the American Dream faded? I must have miss that part...

More on subject : Amnesty international is also another good step! http://www.amnesty.org
___
Kal
 

wil

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Gotta love it, first we attack Iraq based on the UN, and then we made the mistake of creating the UN! As the people that lived on this land before we...
Why? Relatively speaking the North western hemisphere did not develop from conquest, but from peaceful exploration
the US is great for speaking with forked tongue.

Why do we try Sadam in Iraq and not recommend International Court, because if we ever accept int'l court then our generals and presidents and congress will be put on trial...

I think the tribes that lived here, thought conquistadors were out there conquesting, that when we took their land, raped their women, and made them march to the desert and put them on reservations...they thought it a little more than peaceful exploration.

That the six flags that flew over texas each thought they would stay a little longer...

I slept through most of American History....but I remember Manifest Destiny a little differently...

And then when this REPUBLIC goes around taking over countries to establish DEMOCRACIES, when it has been proven no true democcracy (aka mobocracy in the dictionary until Roosevelt) can stand is beyond me... we set countries up to need the IMF and WB so we can utilize resources and control territories...

I just don't think we can stand on our high horse any longer and say....well we don't kill as many as they do...so we are better despite our barbaric ways....
 

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Kaldayen said:
Southpark can blame Canada for a lot of things but not for that ;) Canada has abolished capital punishment since 1976. Although the crime rate is similar to the U.S. one, the homicide rate is much lower. I guess CP doesn't help there.

Stats there : http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/011218/d011218b.htm

I really believe that no one should be able to take someone else's life, be they individuals or governments. For me, capital punishment is the direct legal expression of "an eye for an eye". It doesn't cure anything, it simply kills another person...



My question is out of topic but... do you mean the US rise is written somewhere in Revelation? Could you point me where? I'm curious.
___
Kal
dont you just love southpark?!:p best tv show ever. i agree with the eye for an eye rule, it's completely lame. reason being; law does not give life, only christ gives life which is why he came to fulfill the law and said just love one another. being christian, if you are a real christian, puts you on a higher plane of rules that are voluntary and you give because you want to, you love because you want to, you forgive and show compassion, etc, all for the glory of god. having said that, i personally do not believe in death sentence. vengeance is the lords. i do believe in hard labor and life in prison, etc.. to keep society safe from harm.

the u.s. has done some really racist stuff, like kill indians and take their land, enslave africans and call them 2/3 person, buring so called witches, not allowing women to vote, segragation, discrimination, etc.. all they while saying we are a christian nation. however like the bible says we have to live with our transgressions and you reap what you sow. hopefully the u.s. continues to learn from its mistakes.

i think the u.s. was pretty bad growing up, and since then it has matured somewhat. its not perfect but its pretty darn good. the freedom here to be any religion allows christians to exercise their faith and for that reason the grace of god reaches out to many--here and abroad. the u.s. is also a strong ally of israel and of peace in the world. i dont know if the u.s. is in the bible anwhere, perhaps the u.s. is just a catalyst to something bigger.
 
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