Joseph of Arimathea

D

didymus

Well-Known Member
Messages
506
Reaction score
0
Points
0
I found something interesting about Joseph of Arimathea recently. What I am putting forth here is pure speculation and also coincidence. We all know that Joseph asked Pilate for the body of Jesus after his death( Luke 23:50-54).

Joseph came from the Judean town of Arimathea and was waiting for the kingdom of God according to Luke.

Joseph ben Mathias, aka Flavius Josephus was a Jewish historian and served as governor of Galiliee before joining in the fight against Rome. Later he was captured by the Romans and imprisoned there. He informed Vespasian that God told him that he(Vespasian) would become emperor of Rome. They were suspicious that this was a ploy by Josephus to save his life but subsequently Nero was assasinated and Vespasian became emperor. Josephus was freed and traveled in Vespasian's entourage.

Josephus in his autobiography told of his eminent ancestry and of how his grandfather Joseph begot Matthias in the 10th year of the reign of Archelaus(ad 6) The Greek text of the words 'Joseph (begot) Matthias' is simply Josepou Matthias. The name Joseph of Arimathea is given in the Greek of Mark as Joseph apo Arimathias. Is there a similarity between Joseph of Arimathea and Josephus?? We'll never know.
 
Another curious event in the life of Josephus was written about in his autobiography. Josephus stated that in the last stage of the siege of Jerusalem by the Romans he had been sent by Titus, the general in command, to inspect a potential camp site at Tekoa, 12 miles south of city. On his return he passes a number of prisoners who had been crucified, and recognized 3 of them as aquaintances. When he returned to he pleaded Titus for the them. Titus ordered that they be taken down and given treatment. Two of them died but the third recovered. This is very much like the crucifixion of Jesus. Jesus survived and the 2 others died.

Josephus also wrote in his autobography that he had been a precocious child, and had written," While still a mere boy, about 14 years old, I won universal applause for my love of letters:insomuch that the chief priests and learned men of the city(Jerusalem) used constantly to come to me for precise information on some particular ordinances." Is this not strikingly similar to the story of Jesus with the scribes while he was just a boy?

I don't know what to make of these writings by Josephus. It would seem that with his knowledge of events that he knew these instances were like the Gospel stories. Was he pulling a prank? Were these genuine events in his life? What do you folks make of this?
 
i am just wondering, is this the one where they think Jesus survived the cross & he was treated, then he kind of crawled or got away & just kind of disappeared? like a lion ate him or something?
 
Bandit , I have heard theories like that one, well, all except the lion part. :(
These writings are from Flavius Josephus, a Jewish man who later in life lived in Rome among the elite. He was famous for his writings and chronicles of life in Israel and Rome.

I just stumbled across these writings recently. I'm not sure if he wrote these things to mimic the gospel stories or if they are actually true.
 
In Grand Saint Greal, one of the 13th Century versions of the Arthurian legend, Josephus was considered the son of Joseph of Arimathea and one time guardian of the Holy Grail.
 
yah i have heard of this too. there was supposed to be the sweat & blood of Jesus buried in the Holy Grail in the legend.

I think there is a lot of specualtion too. I believe Joseph was a real person, but the tale kind of grows longer with each generation..(so to speak).
 
Kindest Regards, all!

I am not familiar with the things presented here, but from what I have seen I understood Joseph of Arimathea to have been Jesus' uncle, Mary's brother, and a merchant marine dealing in tin. The Traditions of Glastonbury bring these out.

Josephus, at least by my understanding, was a military man. I am not aware of any connection with Joseph of Arimathea.

I have seen a number of speculations about names and connections about Biblical persons. Simon Zelotes, for example, supposedly according to at least one group of scholars, was so named because of his affiliation with the Zealots, a radical faction of nationalistic Jews at the time of Jesus. Likewise, Judas Iscariot got his name from the Sicari. According to these scholars, the Sicari were the assassins of the Zealots. And these men were among Jesus' desciples? I don't think I agree with these assessments, but it does give pause to wonder.
 
juantoo3 said:
Kindest Regards, all!

I. According to these scholars, the Sicari were the assassins of the Zealots. And these men were among Jesus' desciples? I don't think I agree with these assessments, but it does give pause to wonder.
Click to expand...

I had thought the Sicari and the Zealots were the same people, and they were committed to removing the Herodian/Edomite rulers of Judaea from power.

These Zealots made their last stand at Masada.

Robert Eisenman wrote about this at length in his book, "James, Brother of Jesus"
 
There is a whole story surrounding Josephus and his family....prolific writers and cited as valid historians of the day.

As the story goes...don't shoot me...the gospels and much of the new testament was written by their family...they were commisioned by Rome, concerned that the Jews were becoming 10% of the empire, a magic number from which revolt grows...they needed a way break them down... what better than a mystical messiah, split the forces in two confuse the masses.

Before one throws it out completely as poppycock consider how easy it is to create an urban legend in these days of mass media and instant knowledge...imagine a time where everything is word of mouth and very little in print. We don't have any writings of Jesus, Mathew Mark Luke and John are totally questionable, the only thing we supposedly have is Paul...and nothing written during Jesus life everything decades after his death...and even then only copies from centuries later.

I think it wonderful we can consider this, discuss it, with out it hinderiing our faith...or being thrown to the lions!

namaste,
 
Kindest Regards, Wolfgang!
WolfgangvonUSA said:
I had thought the Sicari and the Zealots were the same people, and they were committed to removing the Herodian/Edomite rulers of Judaea from power.

These Zealots made their last stand at Masada.
Click to expand...
I apologize for any miscommunication. Yes, the Sicari, according to this particular author (perhaps this is where I remember Eisenman's name from) were Zealots. Like the Ninja are trained assassins, supposedly so were the Sicari.

However, to this point, I have not found any real support for this position among scholars. It seems, by my understanding at this point, to be an interpretation by a single, or *very* few, scholars. It is not the general consensus.
 

A wealthy man from the Judean city of Arimathea and a reputable member of the Jewish Sanhedrin. Although a good and righteous man who was waiting for God’s Kingdom, Joseph, because of his fear of unbelieving Jews, did not openly identify himself as a disciple of Jesus Christ. However, he did not vote in support of the Sanhedrin’s unjust action against Christ Jesus. Later, he courageously asked Pilate for Jesus’ body and, along with Nicodemus, prepared it for burial and then placed it in a new rock-cut tomb. This tomb was situated in a garden near the place of impalement and belonged to Joseph of Arimathea.—Mt 27:57-60; Mr 15:43-46; Lu 23:50-53; Joh 19:38-42.

 
juantoo3 said:
With the greatest of respect and civility, I submit that your "story" is just that, a story.
Click to expand...


Hmmm I'm not so sure. Take the other accounts above into consideration. If you were a roman 'strategist' charged with the task of 'seeding' a splinter group amongst the Jews what would you do? Perhaps seek out historical documents available and try to fabricate a story around facts? The accounts of the grandson of Joseph of Arimathea would be ideal. Here you have Jesus, a political upstart, a charismatic orator still vaguely recalled in that area, what better 'material' to work with?

I would'nt be quite as fast to dismiss it. Especially as the burial caskets of Mary, Joseph, Jesus, Mary (wife of Jesus) and their son Judah are all reported to be in the possesion of Israel. Strong evidence he did indeed survive his crucifixtion. And its easy to dismiss such stories as fancy you might say, but there is a huge vested interest in rubbishing them also.....

The Truth is out there.......damned if we will be allowed to see it though :p
 
Tao_Equus said:
Hmmm I'm not so sure. Take the other accounts above into consideration. If you were a roman 'strategist' charged with the task of 'seeding' a splinter group amongst the Jews what would you do? Perhaps seek out historical documents available and try to fabricate a story around facts? The accounts of the grandson of Joseph of Arimathea would be ideal. Here you have Jesus, a political upstart, a charismatic orator still vaguely recalled in that area, what better 'material' to work with?

I would'nt be quite as fast to dismiss it. Especially as the burial caskets of Mary, Joseph, Jesus, Mary (wife of Jesus) and their son Judah are all reported to be in the possesion of Israel. Strong evidence he did indeed survive his crucifixtion. And its easy to dismiss such stories as fancy you might say, but there is a huge vested interest in rubbishing them also.....

The Truth is out there.......damned if we will be allowed to see it though :p
Click to expand...
i think that is why it is called the gnostic & islam religion
 
I think reading all of the texts, attempting to have an open mind has increased my spirituality and faith. By exploring not only the conventional religions but also the 'heretics' from the apocrypha, to Josephus, to HBHG, to Godess of the Gospels..... All of this has made me realize, someone could fully pull the rug out from under me, any of the stories could be misinterpreted, wrong, or made up. It has no bearing on my faith, I love the stories and the virtues and morality they represent. I can learn and live by reading them and grow by following them. I don't have to defend them as historic or even accurate, it is the essence I live by. And when I read something that is so counter to what resonates, I read between the lines, I attempt to understand it allegorically, metaphoricly or metaphysically, I put myself or parts of my psyche in place of the characters or situation and find new understanding that I can use today.

namaste,
 
Kindest Regards, all!
I would'nt be quite as fast to dismiss it. Especially as the burial caskets of Mary, Joseph, Jesus, Mary (wife of Jesus) and their son Judah are all reported to be in the possesion of Israel. Strong evidence he did indeed survive his crucifixtion. And its easy to dismiss such stories as fancy you might say, but there is a huge vested interest in rubbishing them also.....
Click to expand...
If such things were true, would there not also be vested interest in making these things known? Life is full of rumor and speculation, a great deal of which has political intent behind it, and so very little of which actually has any real evidence.

I stand by my statement, until such time as evidence is forthcoming. :D

Doubting Thomas and all, y'know?
 
the burial caskets ... (of) Jesus, Mary (wife of Jesus) and their son Judah ... are all reported to be in the possesion of Israel.
Click to expand...
Interesting. Did the state of Israel get them from France? I thought Jesus went into exile and founded the Merovingian dynasty that ended with, was it Dagobert III, or Childeric (something)? I forget, it's been awhile, early stage alzheimers, :D
 
wil said:
As the story goes...the gospels and much of the new testament ... were commisioned by Rome
Click to expand...

The concerns I would have with that idea are:

1. There is no overall homogeneity among the wider number of documents about Jesus present before canonisation;

2. I don't believe that Rome tried to conquer people in this way - they didn't conqueor through the creation of new religions - they were a military state who won by force, then assimilated other gods by associated where they saw fit.

The Jews could be a thorn in the Roman side, but the Dacians and Germanians were far more trouble, and I'm not aware of a similar attempt to subdue them with theology.

3. Also, which Roman emperor are we talking about carrying out such a plot in the first place? Even the letters of Saint Paul are suggested contemporaneous with Nero, for which Tacitus reports Christianity is already a small but significant movement. So you would have to look to emperors such as Tiberius, Claudius, or Caligula, as creating the movement - and that doesn't easily fit with the character of their reigns.


Certainly there is some stark pro-Roman views in the Gospels - for example, the Roman governor is noble and decent and would have saved Jesus, and the first convert to Christianity is a Centurion (a man of respect and responsibility).

However, I can't see an argument as yet that says there was any organised way to divide the Jews through the creation of Messianic writings.


As for the original comments on Joseph of Aramathea - well, it's worth remembering that his own writings were an act of propaganda in itself - he preens himself and his masters well. :)
 
juantoo3 said:
Interesting. Did the state of Israel get them from France? I thought Jesus went into exile and founded the Merovingian dynasty that ended with, was it Dagobert III, or Childeric (something)? I forget, it's been awhile, early stage alzheimers, :D
Click to expand...

No, no Juan. Mary M. went to France and settled in a quaint little town called Rennes-le Chateau, in the Pyrenees. Had a child that allegedly belonged to Jesus. In the 19th century Abbe Sauniere found the evidence in the town church...at least that is how the story goes.

;)

v/r

Q
 
2. I don't believe that Rome tried to conquer people in this way - they didn't conqueor through the creation of new religions - they were a military state who won by force, then assimilated other gods by associated where they saw fit.
Click to expand...
as the story goes.... they weren't conquering a people, they already had them in their midst, what they were doing was proactively difusing a rebellion...they needed lemmings that paid taxes.

Less than 10% of the colonists wanted to revolt against England...many were in support of, most were apathetic...in all times a few rebels can cause major uproars, without popular support...we see this in coups around the world forever....

and starting rumors, controlling the masses through the media...probably isn't all that new either...

namaste,
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top