Religion as an excuse for war?

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by poolking, Aug 10, 2003.

  1. tychomorpheus

    tychomorpheus New Member

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    It usually is: "I am doing it in the name of DOGMA".

    Yes dogma is an excuse for war. Because Dogma is made as any other human law, so it can serve as The law. It is conceived by the human mind, not revealed.

    All the wars have some kind of legal pretexts (like "this land was ours based on the piece of ancient paper we found under a pile of camel excrements and carbon dated it to be older than this country's declaration of independence and hence we should invade it").

    Replace the text in the parenthesis with any issue any dogma can provide and you've got yourself a pretext for war.

    Honestly i have rarely heard of a "sincere" wars, that is where people went on formed an army and started to kill their neighbors because they wanted their land, their wealth or simply they hated their guts.

    Romans had some degree of sincerity, in the sense that wars were almost always political, without needing pretexts. Looking back didn't that built some respect?

    So again, yes dogma is an excellently fit pretext for war. Dont confuse it with religion. For example its not a revelatory experience of some pope that drove the crusaders to act like barbarians, but some dogmatic view that christians should politically rule the Jerusalem. Thats all. However the pretext was superbly motivating for the educated warriors of the time.

    Nowadays its all the same. Again.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2011
  2. Servetus

    Servetus New Member

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    As I see it, the greatest human sacrifices to Mars (the god of war) of the 20th Century were done either by avowed, institutional atheists (and, granted, collectivists) such as Stalin in the Soviet Union or by aspiring racial purists such as Adolf Hitler who dedicated himself to trying to rid Germany of its “Asiatic” (read: Jewish) encrustation, Christianity, in exchange for Nibelungen Germanism.

    The photograph of the happy triad, Bill Clinton, Yitzhak Rabin and Yasser Arafat (which link I followed to arrive in this thread), might bring religion to mind, but, again to my view and beneath the surface, it is worth noting that Bill Clinton presided over a country, the USA, which does not go to war to defend the doctrines of Jesus Christ, but rather to defend, among others of its type, the Carter Doctrine, which declared the Persian Gulf a vital, strategic interest. Yitzhak Rabin was Prime Minister of a country, Israel, which, though it takes a Biblical name and thus evokes Biblical images, was nevertheless colonized by often secular, political Zionists who had reportedly grown tired of their endlessly waiting for the Messiah and had decided, using Leo Pinsker’s term, to “auto-emancipate.” Finally, Yasser Arafat, it seems to me, was more a “Palestinian Nationalist” than a so called Islamist (or one who seeks to reestablish the Islamic Caliphate), and his language was often that of nationalism rather than religion, though the two are sometimes intertwined.

    With that said, while it is clear to me that religion can be -and often is- used as a motivational factor in war, so, too, can irreligion. What remains constant in both cases is war itself.
     
  3. donnann

    donnann Active Member

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    To me politics and religion are separate issues. The only way you can compare them has to do with morality. I believe the united states has good moral values based on its belief in human rights. Wars we have fought on other soil such as world war 2 was to defend the innocent. Although war is never a welcome event I believe the intentions for fighting against hitler were good ones. He did things to the jews they dont even tell you and you have to do research to find out. The nazis were into the occult big time and tried to use it for political power. We didnt do that and look who won.
     
  4. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    In the seige of Beziers Amaud, an Abbot,a Crusader and Papal legate famously said "Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius." Kill them all G!d will recognize His own. How many more examples do you want? Religion has been an excuse for killing and warfare throughout recorded history (see the Book of Joshua for one).

    Pax et amore vincunt omnia--radarmark.
     
  5. donnann

    donnann Active Member

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    Well the US doesnt use religon as an excuse to fight wars. I do believe people in other countries use religion as an excuse to commit horrible acts. Again this comes from a misinterpretion of holy books.
     
  6. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    Point well taken (except look up the original Thanksgiving Proclamation from the Plymouth Colonies "victory over the heathen"). I believe otherwise... seems to me like too much of our current foreign adventures are fueled by Fundamentalist support of Israel and a Crusader mentality (see General Boykins) and a general denegration of everything Arabic or Muslim. It is definately because of mis-interprtation, but so is religion (as most prople believe it).


    Pax et amore vincunt omnia -- radarmark
     
  7. donnann

    donnann Active Member

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    As far as politics Israel is a small country that has a right to exist. The US does defend this right. As far as religion all the books say the same thing , its misinterpretations of it that is the problem. The whole true concept of infidels is not to harm people but to try to tell them to treat each other in kind compassionate ways. It does not mean to convert someone to being a muslim or any other religion. The gross misinterpretation of the Koran has led to violence against non muslims. There is one god who is the father of all. I dont believe in one world religion and believe everyone has the right to keep their own cultures, however if followers all knew that all the books are saying the same thing then maybe they would stop trying to harm others and claim they are doing it for GOD.

    What question needs to be answered are so called religious wars fought for political reasons...such as wanting land or resources or do the people fighting them generally believe they are doing it for the right reasons? If they truely believe its ok with god to harm other people to try to convert them religiously then they need to reexamine their beliefs. If its political thats just not going to fly, human rights is the key factor in any good government and trying to exterminate a people for political reasons or religious ones is simply inhumane and I personally support the attempt to stop anyone from trying to extinguish a whole people. Thats also rascism.
     
  8. Servetus

    Servetus New Member

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    You might have a difficult time convincing some of my especially literate Muslim friends of that. Consider, as well, George McGovern inquiring of George W Bush --->source:

    Evidently, when in consultation, George W. Bush’s heavenly father gave him the go-ahead to conquer Iraq because (absit omen!) we are still there.
     
  9. donnann

    donnann Active Member

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    Sorry but I have never heard a politician say they are doing any military action because their religion told them to. Christian religions never preach that its ok to harm people. Are the Islamic leaders preaching peace and knowledge and understanding of the creators kingdom like they should be? Instead of blaming the united states maybe you need to look inside yourself and say what would allah do not listen to what your being told to do by MEN.
     
  10. donnann

    donnann Active Member

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    One more point the us has separation of church and state. The US is a place where everyone is free to practice their own religion. However if you commit as crime such as murder and claim its because your religion says you should do it thats no excuse. You should still be prosecuted for that crime. Now morals in politics is a different subject. One thing you do not understand about the united states is it never wants to go to war and would love world peace. So my question is was attacking the twin towers really religiously motivated or politically motivated?
     
  11. donnann

    donnann Active Member

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    Not only has the misinterpretation of the Koran harmed non muslims but its also harming muslims as well. Killing family members because you think the koran is telling you to do that is wrong. You know I have heard chrisitans say the bible can be the devils best weapon. This goes for the Koran too and how he uses it as a weapon is men misinterpreting gods word and not knowing that god doesnt think like men do but has a totally divine mind.,
     
  12. Servetus

    Servetus New Member

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    Maybe you have never heard it because you are not Jacques Chirac :D.

    Source (Andrew Brown at guardian.co.uk):

    On second thought, and now that I have posted this, maybe I was wrong when, in my above post, I said the USA doesn't go to war to defend the doctrines of Jesus Christ.
     
  13. donnann

    donnann Active Member

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    Do you think god would want you to fight a war in his name. Do you not understand his power? Gods power is all based on good elements and magical events are proof of this power. GODS fire consumes bad fire that harms life it doesnt harm life. Like moses serpent consumed pharoehs serpent. The point is the USA does not use religion as an EXCUSE to go to war nor does it say its fighting a war for religious reasons. An example is world war 2. Hitler was a man who was into the occult and commited horrible acts. The US defeated him. The usa didnt fight against him for religious reasons but rather moral ones, to stop him from hurting people If the USa had the power to do miracles like heavenly beings I am sure the usa would use it for the betterment of mankind. Nothing on earth is perfect but as far as government the usa is the best in the world. Where else can you explore other ideas and ways of thinking on your path to enlightenment? You have the wrong impression. The US never WANTS to go to war but if you kick a sleeping giant in his knee he will awaken and be angry.
     
  14. Servetus

    Servetus New Member

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    I thought the issue was whether or not George W. Bush would fight a war in his heavenly father’s name, or at least with his implied permission. The answer to that, according to George McGovern’s above-linked impartial interrogation of Bush, is evidently yes.

    And that makes it all the more dangerous. From at least the time of Woodrow Wilson and on to the reincarnation of Woodrow Wilson on crack, George W. Bush, the USA has often used an ersatz religion, something called “democracy,” as an excuse to go to war. It has spread democracy, to say nothing of depleted uranium, with a zeal far more militant and considerably in excess than that of any band of priests with their crucifixes beneath their cloaks, sharpened to dagger point, en route to South America. Moreover, like any ersatz religionist against whom a Prophet Isaiah might inveigh, the USA does seem to draw nigh to democracy with its lips but its heart is far from it. There are two cases in point: when Chile elected Salvador Allende, the Nixon Administration raised its gavel to annul, and, more recently, when the Palestinians elected Hamas, they were soon thereafter starved of cash. Finally, the great Canadian troubadour, Leonard Cohen, got away with putting a terribly revolutionary lyric to music in a song called “Democracy.” In it, he warned that “democracy is coming” and that it is coming, ultimately, to the USA.

    Umm. Let’s see. Switzerland? Yes, that’s it, Switzerland.

    That is entirely possible. Even though my aging father is an American veteran of WWII, I do sometimes feel like a sort of resident alien. With that having been said, if you are absolutely convinced that the USA is not given to war-mongering, I might suggest that you review this book, by the highly competent (Career United States Army, Vietnam Veteran, Professor at Boston University whose son died in Iraq) Andrew Bacevich, entitled "The New American Militarism: How Americans are Seduced by War." In that book, as one will discover, Americans are like Britney Spears and Paris Hilton. That is to say, they are notoriously easy to seduce.

    My father says that he remembers Roosevelt saying, into his radio microphone: “I don’t like war and Eleanore does not like war.” But my question to Roosevelt and to practically every one of his successors is this: just why is it, then, that we, as a nation, are usually up to our nostrils in one (or more)?
     
  15. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    Sevetus, watch "Patton". As a combat vet I can tell you he was really close. American love a good war. And we get conned into bad ones like, oh let's see, Vietnam (what was at stake that was worth 53,000 dead boys and girls) or Iraq (where are those dang WMD's). We all know LBJ lied about the Gulf of Tonkin (we were doing singnal intercepts and that same night we were landing SVN special forces in NVN). And we all know Iraq was planned by a bunch of chickenhawks who came up with idea in "New American Century" and George just wanted to kick ass because "he tried to kill my Dad".

    Pax et amore vincunt omnia. Radarmark
     
  16. donnann

    donnann Active Member

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    Defending ourselves or defending someone else that is weaker or smaller. No one believes war is good and no one wants them. Maybe if people would stop trying to extingusih others who do not agree with their religious veiws there wouldnt be any wars. Maybe if people understood that misinterpretation of scripture is the big problem there would be peace. I hope that one day that everyone will live as one human community and not separate each other just because of race or culture.
     
  17. donnann

    donnann Active Member

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    The United States is the only place in the whole world that has everyone sitting as one people. Made up of all ethnic backgrounds and religions. There are no borders to separate us from each other. If the rest of the world would realize that the jew, the christian , the muslim, the buddhist, the hindu ect all belong to one community, the human community , then maybe they would all stop fighting.
     
  18. Servetus

    Servetus New Member

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    There has never been another like Patton, one of my father’s heroes, and one of the chief characters in a war into the details of which I sometimes study and make historical inquiries. Depending upon one’s viewpoint, it is probably a good thing that he is not in the so called theatre of military operations today because he might well be marching with might and mien upon the District of Columbia.

    Exactly. There is no Centurion quite so lethal –and rarely as given to dodging the draft and seeking other protections- as the Project For the New American Centurions.

    It is really quite amazing how practically every American military action is stated (and generally, at least by Americans, accepted) in terms of American largess. I can hear it now (and the irony, please note, is intended): America should use its resources, including, when necessary, its military, to liberate Muslims from Islam and to liberate Islam from its antipathy to absolute pacifism. That, and perhaps just incidentally to make the Middle East safe for Israeli nuclear hegemony, is the new apparent “crusade.”

    Except, that is, Nietzsche and some of the unapologetically martial Germans and Muslims and Israelis and militant Democratists and Basque separatists and so on and so forth. Listen, then, as the great and imperturbable Nietzsche inverts the Beatitudes: “A good cause, you say, hallows war, but I say unto you it is the good war that hallows every cause.” Thus Spake Zarathustra. And thus spake G. W. Bush to Jacques Chirac.

    To my view, and though the issues are simplified, that wouldn’t explain why the (atheistic) Soviet Union went to war against (avowedly pagan) Germany. Wars, it seems, will happen anyway, with or without established religion.

    I hope so, too. It is a noble sentiment.
     
  19. donnann

    donnann Active Member

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    Yes well that is how it should be and what is in all of our hearts what we have to ask is what events happen to try to change that and why. We all love feel compassion ect but when we look at everyone as one family then we realize we should have that FEELING (soul essence) for every0one.
     
  20. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea Well-Known Member

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    I recommend reading War is a Force that Gives Us Meaning by Chris Hedges, it's bout the corrupting aspects of war. It goes on saying that religion often isn't the source of conflict but is used as fuel, among other things.

    This is ignorant in my meaning, there has always been borders between people and perhaps always will, it's a common and powerful tool when creating unity within a group to direct and focus it's negative feelings towards another group. And painting the US out to be superior to all others makes me think you should take a vacation sometime, out side the US.
     

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