Religion as an excuse for war?

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by poolking, Aug 10, 2003.

  1. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    this is your interpretation. Because there is no where in the Bible stating this as scripture. I just want to be absolute on this...this is your personal interpretation.

    I see a different story you understand...therein lies the crux of the matter. Same story, different points of view. No priests can augment, because they would not be believed in this forum.

    You have an interesting point of view, and I respect that. I see, however, different things from the same story...
     
  2. Susma Rio Sep

    Susma Rio Sep Well-Known Member

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    Mishmashing different worlds

    Of war and religion, I think that if we distinguish between the real world consisting in such things as eating, stones, and lightning, and the credal world consisting of such things of God, hell, sphinx, then we can see that religion becomes a factor in war when people cannot see what is real from what is credal, and worse they take the credal as real.

    The confusion between the real world and the credal world is due to the failure to live in the world of logic, but to stray into the delusional world.

    The world of logic consists in such concepts as two plus two equals four, and the whole is greater than any of its parts; the delusional world is found in such behavior as the guy who thinks that he can fly and jumps out from the 50th storey of a building.

    When we examine war where religion plays a part, we can see that politicians behave in a delusional world, but move their peoples to act in such a manner as to confuse the credal world with the real world, by preventing them from thinking and acting logically.

    What is this delusional world that politicians live in? The world of megalomania, and all other kinds of manias and phobias they are drenched in as part of their character repertory.

    What is the solution for not succumbing to delusional politicians? Education to discern the real world from the credal one, to detect the delusional world from the world of logic.


    Susma Rio Sep
     
  3. El Greko

    El Greko Active Member

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    Heavy old bag, man

    Heavy man, thats a heavy thing to drop on me, I'm just a humble rocket scientist, what do you mean, please Susma Rio explain in first grade English you sound pretty delusional, can you brighten up just a tad!
     
  4. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    quoth the raven..."never more".
     
  5. Susma Rio Sep

    Susma Rio Sep Well-Known Member

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    600 plus pages

    I used to come across books on how to read. One holds from cover to cover some over 600 pages in small print.

    I think one of the editors of the Great Books of the Western World wrote also such a book.

    If my writing sounds like Greek to you, maybe you can benefit from such books.

    Or go to classes for people wishing to acquire elementary mastery of written and oral Englsih.

    Let' us a good hearty laugh together, OK?

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!




    Susma Rio Sep
     
  6. Archangel

    Archangel Member

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    STRICTLY as an excuse for war?

    Amazing that people who once had a close relationship with the "Creator" God, had their land taken from them by those who supposedly had a more superior faith called "Christianity". Only to then establish a government not based upon any faith or Religion at all. If given some thought...this government must at least see itself as Religion itself. To hold itself so high as to not allow the establishment of it? To be so hypocritical as to allow everyone the faith of their choice? Even in the days it was written...the faith of the Apache was not recognized as Religion. Even today, there are those who do not recognize Islam as Religion. They only recognize what THEY wish to deem as acceptable faith. Yet they recognize no faith in their own government? Strange hypocrisy indeed. How is the world to view this?

    It is not true Religion that is used for war, because the Bible does not say to overtake people, take their land, and physically force a book down their throats. After all...there are many who somewhat think that Religion is a book.
     
  7. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Admin

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    Some very good points, but I highlighted this especially - the notion of secularism has acquired a rather nasty fundamentalist streak in US atheism. Although I hear that Christianity can be pretty aggressive and militant in at least parts of the US, it seems a shame that Atheism has become, in many ways for many people, an exact mirror of this fundamentalism.

    Whilst that is understandable where Christianity encroaches where it has no constitutional right to (ie, pushing for the teaching of Creationism in federal schools), the overall effect that many US Atheists I have experienced bash Christians with far too broad a brush.
     
  8. Archangel

    Archangel Member

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    Funny how so many people in the U.S. think that "well-industrialized" = "good spiritual education". Even atheists must think they are spiritually educated to boldly make such a decision to become it.
     
  9. El Greko

    El Greko Active Member

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    Lord of the pages

    Whilst that is understandable where Christianity encroaches where it has no constitutional right to (ie, pushing for the teaching of Creationism in federal schools), the overall effect that many US Atheists I have experienced bash Christians with far too broad a brush.

    How do I put the above hit as Quotes , as I start my reply, as a reply to somebody elses posting and not yours Brian?




    A hearty laugh, turns away much wrath, grasshopping hahahahaha

    I had a little giggle when I read your reply.

    I had the same problem reading your previous as getting past the first paragraph of Lord of the Rings but it made a great film, cinemas packed full of people who either left behind that 600 page booklet or used it to sit upon and get a better view over the guy in front popping pop corn.

    Sorry, what were we debating, grasshopper?

    Anyway, on the point of militant Athiesm, I welcome it, I welcome anything which makes Christians the underdogs, we thrive on the blood of martyrs not the fat of the land.

    I dont want to be just another goody goody, there aren't any martys where I live, the biggest decision facing us is ' Do we go and see The Passion or not'

    I call that pretty tough, so lets start organising conferences around it, why don't we? Give me a break, give me a militant atheist anyday instead of the goldfish I work with, whose biggest life concern is getting out to buy cat food during lunch break.

    Tell you where I feel good, when somebody screams out to me in the office that I am the biggest hypocrite they have ever come across, man I feel so good when that happens, I believe I am gettin up there nose!
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2004
  10. Vajradhara

    Vajradhara One of Many

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    Namaste all,

    perhaps this is on point...


    "It is the inherent nature of human beings to yearn for freedom, equality and dignity. Brute force, no matter how strongly applied, can never subdue the basic desire for freedom and dignity."

    His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama
     
  11. Susma Rio Sep

    Susma Rio Sep Well-Known Member

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    Neither respect nor disrespect

    I really can't see anything so earthshaking in the line of the Dalai. Everyone knows that.

    If you live a normal life with people for just twenty years and all the time keeping your eyes and ears open and specially your mind keen, then you substantially know that line. No need to quote Dalai for the thought.

    This is not to be offensive, but just to tell things as they are. Now, some people can't see things as they are and with their eyes and ears and their mind all open and operative, unless someone with his name in the papers says them.

    No disrespect and neither respect either to the Dalai. But I still think that he should just get married or get a job, and continue teaching his wisdom for life and the universe, as your ordinary good friend in the office or in the neighborhood.

    Susma Rio Sep
     
  12. Vajradhara

    Vajradhara One of Many

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    Namaste Su,

    are you one of those folks that believes that everyone is endowed with the same capacity for reason? common sense isn't nearly as common as it would appear to be :)

    besides... why does something have to be "earth shaking" to be said by someone like the Dalai Lama?

    LOL... yep.. just toss away the entire thing :) that makes as much sense as a bag of hammers! he has a job, by the way, as the head of the government in exile. of course.. you also think that he should just go back to Tibet and procreate, raise cattle and other things which baffle me. why is it so hard for you to accept that some people are spiritual by nature and choose to live the life of a monk or nun? do you adovcate that the Pope go back to Poland, get a job and a wife and have some kids? do you see nothing of value in the traditions that these two people belong to?

    as i've said before on this topic, you and i have fundamentally opposed points of view and i do not believe that we can reconcile them.
     
  13. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Admin

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    Do this, but without the spaces:

    [ quote =name ]
    quoted text
    [ /quote ]


    Heh, not in this place. :)

    Well, keep that in the office. :)
     
  14. QueryGuy

    QueryGuy A guy who's Baha'i

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    I know this thread is old, but it seems to be active so I'll throw in a few words.

    First of all, please don't assume all religions permit war in their name. One of my favorite writings from the Baha'i faith is a lesser known tablet written by Baha'u'llah, entitled "Bisharat" (Glad-Tidings). In it, Baha'u'llah not only forbids Holy Wars (crusades, jihads, etc.) but he also encourages association and good relations with those of other religions.

    Here are two quotes from the tablet of Bisharat:

    "O people of the earth! The first Glad-Tidings which the Mother Book hath, in this Most Great Revelation, imparted unto all the peoples of the world is that the law of holy war hath been blotted out from the Book."
    (Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 21)​
    "The second Glad-Tidings: It is permitted that the peoples and kindreds of the world associate with one another with joy and radiance. O people! Consort with the followers of all religions in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship."
    (Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 21)​


    So as you can see, there is no room for using religion as an excuse for war in the Baha'i faith. Its founder, Baha'u'llah, explicitly forbids it.

    QG
     
  15. Susma Rio Sep

    Susma Rio Sep Well-Known Member

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    Good man, Vaj.


    Good man, Vaj. Buddha bless you. (There are Buddhists using that invocation.)

    I have to disagree with you again, that we can't dialogue. Well, perhaps not in those things you think you can't dialogue with me on.

    But, good man, Vaj, in this vast universe of ideas and mental preferences, there are almost still infinite things we can dialogue on.

    Like, how's your plan of making enough money so that you can set up a monastery for a community of monks where you would apply on retirement to live a reclusive life in the grounds of the monastery?

    Getting anywhere yet?

    If you can't dialogue with me on this matter which you mentioned somewhere else, namely, your retirement plans, then I am not sure that you are the good man you are for being a Buddhist.

    We are all here using incognito names, but can't avoid getting personal even if we want to. But such is human contact, give a minute with a guy, and you and he become a community, and I mean a community, with emphasis on commun.

    That's why if Bush and Bin Laden get together and live in the same hole for a week, without any possibility of killing off each other -- I think Bin Laden can kill with his bare hands, but I don't know about Bush, he's more the talking kind than the real doing kind; I am sure they will get along pretty well, and figure out a way to get both their followers from on the one side committing terrorism and on the other side giving all the reasons why, vis-a-vis each other.

    Here is an idea I have for you, another one, about retirement plans and prospects of taking up eremitic existence outside on the grounds of a Buddhist monastery.

    I got a friend here who with a number of moneyed people are now in the process of building a columbarium, a new structure in our place. So he asked me to get a space or a cubbyhole for myself there. I said I have already bought my cemeterial lot from another memorial plan set-up.

    My point is that even in the midst of the city with all its hustle and bustle, there is still the peace of the cemetery, there in a columbarium.

    No need to retreat to the grounds of a monastery, Vaj. Hang around in the city, just make your home into some kind of a columbarium. You can still have all the peace, and quiet, and solitude of the forest or desert, and be a testimony to anyone and everyone who wants to learn from your school of Buddhism, if and when you want to allow yourself contacts with the outside world. Convenient for all of us.

    And remember, Vaj, you have a treasury of learning which can profit a lot of people, like yours truly. Make yourself available to others, that's one way of doing the ministry of Buddha: to relieve the sufferings of mankind.

    Susma Rio Sep
     
  16. Susma Rio Sep

    Susma Rio Sep Well-Known Member

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    I have come to bring war...

    Back to religion as excuse for war.

    An excuse is a reason to do something which otherwise is at least impolite. Thus we say, "Excuse me, I have to leave now, I am late for work."

    The reason must itself be at least again morally indifferent, and certainly not illegal. We don't excuse ourselves for leaving an ongoing conversation, saying: "Excuse me, I have to leave now, I am late for my bank heist."

    QueryGuy tells us:

    Jesus on the contrary says something like "I have come to bring war between a brother and a brother... and a man's enemies will be members of his household." Something like that...

    I guess this line has been interpreted by Christians as to mean that one can defend his Christian faith even by going to war. It's like Christians telling the world, "Excuse us from staying peaceful, we have to go to war to defend our faith."

    Which obviously from common sense cannot be challenged indeed as a lawful reason to go to war. Just like the principle of self-defense in using violence against an unjust assailant.

    Here is my question to QueryGuy, how do Baha'ists solve that kind of a quandary, considering that their founder abjures war altogether.

    Susma Rio Sep
     
  17. 9Harmony

    9Harmony goin' with the flow...

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    Dear Susma,

    May I ask that you please refer to us just simply as Baha'i's? There are no 'ists' and 'isms' in the Baha'i Faith. Thank you! I would appreciate it.

    As for your question...

    The verse you are referring to is



    This verse is in reference to 'the time of the end'. This is among the signs which must occur before Christ Returns in the Glory of the Father. Obviously this prophecy has been fulfilled.

    But yes some Christians use verses like this as an excuse to commit heinous acts of war, just as some radical Muslims use verses in the Quran for the same purpose.

    Defending one's Faith was admissible in prior dispensations, but the leaders and followers took liberties with the scriptures. When they didn't understand what it was saying they would guess at it. Since it's been done for so long, they cannot see the error of their ways. The differences in the original teachings of each religion is based on the requirements of the age/culture in which they appeared. What was necessary 2000 years ago is no longer appropriate for this age, hence new teachings. These teachings are not brought to destroy the former, but to fulfill them.

    This is a phenomena that has repeated itself throughout all of religious history. It has alot to do with literal interpretation of scriptures as well as blindly following our religious leaders and teachers and parents, and so the cycle continues.

    Here are a couple quotes to help illustrate...



    I believe that is why Baha'u'llah abrograted the priesthood, this is one of the reasons He was so vehemently opposed in His day, if the Islamic clergy would have accepted Him they would have lost all of their power and authority. There is no clergy in the Baha'i Faith, it is now the responsibility of every individual to investigate the truth for themselves. In past ages illiteracy was a major factor, people needed religious leaders to teach them, that is no longer the case.


    Just because certain things are acceptable in any given society does not make them right. The laws most people adhere to are manmade, though some have roots in scriptures it is based on man's fallible interpretation of said scriptures.

    I hope that helped to answer your question to some degree.

    Please note that the above is my opinion only and is not necessarily the official Baha'i position on this matter.

    Loving Greetings, Harmony
     
  18. Archangel

    Archangel Member

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    Here is one often used in history to condone war:

    Cursed be he that doeth the work of the LORD deceitfully, and cursed be he that keepeth back his sword from blood. Jeremiah 48:10
     
  19. Pedro

    Pedro Old and New Age Mystic

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    Religion an excuse for war?

    Hello All
    Am new to this site, so please excuse any technical boobs I might create!

    Religion has been humanities major thread in history. Therefore it is hardly surprising that war has been fought in its name.
    However, take religion away and war would still have been fought. Such has been human nature with its desire for power over people land and goods. Religion has acted as a convenient cloak for such activities. This cloak is not now used so much, except by nations where fundamentalist fanaticism still reigns.
    Concerning war, there is another concept to take into account. It is inevitably the result of the collective karma of the nations involved. What we sow, we reap, collectively and individually. Our thoughts and actions produce results, whether or not we are politicians and leaders.
    It is up to you and me to bring war to an end. The individual, the family, society and nation and race, have to learn to think peace and live peacably. We must have peace within our own selves for it to reflect out into the larger world. That is, the peacable life of every individual counts toward our collective karma. You want peace?------make sure it is within yourself.
     
  20. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Admin

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    Hi Pedro, and welcome to CR. :)
     

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