Logic and Faith: Oil and Water?

Awaiting_the_fifth

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"Consider all knowledge to fall above or below a line of demarcation. Everything above this line is not necessary to the solution of mans abberations and general shortcomings and is inexactly known. Such a field of thought could be considered to embrace such things as metaphysics and mysticism. Below this line of demarcation could be considered to lie the finite universe. All things in the finite Universe whether known or as yet unknown can be sensed, experienced or measured."
Ron Hubbard.

I think Mr Hubbard quite accurately draws out the difference here between Logic and Faith, the main reason I consider Mr Hubbard to be incredibly misguided is that he goes on to say,

All factors necessary to the resolution of a science of the mind were found within the finite universe
I would personally argue that it is the information above the line which is most important, and that a "Science of the mind" is impossible to achieve without it.

I am no longer sure whether or not I am on topic here, sorry.
 

Twinlove

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Hello InLove and all,

Logic, belief...faith, love...knowledge, knowing...the inner and outer. Where is the starting point and where is the end? Do we start out with preconcieved notions or do we recieve ideas and influences and then come to conclusions? Do we have more faith in one influence over another? I know people who blindly believe everything they hear, if it's on CNN then it must be true. Then there are others who use logic and conclude that it is not possible , when the most logical conclusion is that anything is possible with knowledge.

I suggest that we all use logic,faith,knowledge and belief to affirm what we already know within ourselves. We use outter knowledge to confirm the inner knowing. Can I walk on water? Yes I can, I just do not posses the knowledge, as of yet, of how to do this, yet I have an inner knowing that I can.

The last thing I would like to comment on is levels of love. I'm trying to figure out how faith and love can be worked into being the same. I think the word love is one of the most misinterpeted words that we use freely. When we were kids candy was the greatest love that we had, even winning out over family in most instances. Love of your spouse,job,car,kids,certain foods,church or a love in your faith....are these the type of humanistic labeled loves that we are talking about? I say that there is a higher love out there, a love that is on a level all by itself and has nothing to do with faith, and with me it is an inner knowing comfirmed by first hand knowledge.

Gospel of Thomas 55 Jesus said, "Whoever does not hate father and mother cannot be my disciple, and whoever does not hate brothers and sisters, and carry the cross as I do, will not be worthy of me."

Was this a parable about love?

Thanks to all and hope to be able to add and recieve more to this community in the future.
 

Chela

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Logical thought is not objective because it is formulated by the subject (the mind). Math is objective though because it is the application of the principles of the universe (the object).

Faith is beyond thought. Intellectuals and materalists cannot accept faith because they do not understand it. Intellectuals believe that the intellect is the Self and materalists believe that the physical organism is the self, but, really, neither the intellect nor the physical organism constitute the entirety of the self.

This vast misunderstanding is how materalistis and intellectuals have taken faith and distorted into something that means blind belief. In reality, faith is not belief at all. Do you need to believe you are sitting at a computer? No, you just know, you have faith about that.

Those who blindly believe in God are short changing themselves and leaving themselves to wander under the Tower of Babel.

Belief transforms into faith through direct experinece.

Those who have the faith of a mustard seed can move mountains!
 

Saponification

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I don't think faith is logical if someone has pure, unquestioning faith without having actively tested it. Not all religions are faith-based as such, they demand logic and reasoning from their followers.
 

InLove

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Hi Saponification--welcome to CR:) .

I respect what you say. But for me, the evidence of things not seen lives within me. And that evidence is real to me. I ask lots of questions of that Spirit within me. The answers I receive from the Spirit are logical to me.

The answers I receive from religions don't always make sense.

What I say may not be what you say, but I still love to listen.

(That's an informal invitation to come again to ponder it all together.:) )

InPeace,
InLove
 

InLove

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Personally, I think that logic and faith have more in common that we are really comfortable believing. We accept the whole world on faith, including logic. I think that faith underpins our entire existence. It is through faith that we believe logic can yield results.
I just like this so much that I thought I would highlight it again.

Along with this one:

Perhaps the greatest act of faith would be one where a life is lived with a minimum number of beliefs.
;)

InPeace,
InLove
 

Quahom1

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To have faith, one must begin with logic. In order to believe in something, one must convince one's self with reasons why they believe. To use logic, one ultimately must have some form of faith. Because at some point, our knowledge limit will present itself, and we must move ahead into the unknown.

Example:

Imagine that you’re standing before a chasm that you have to cross. The chasm could be a river, valley, a lake, a canyon, or even a crater on the moon. There are two bridges that are parallel to one another and either one will take you where you want to go.



The first bridge looks very modern. It’s steel and very big. It doesn’t show any signs of aging. The second bridge is wooden and has signs of aging, but is not so dilapidated as to be un-crossable. Which bridge would you most likely choose? The steel bridge of course. Did you make your choice because you know absolutely, 100% without a doubt that the steel bridge will not fall under your weight? No. It is not impossible that the steel bridge will not fall under your weight, only improbable, based upon your current level of knowledge. Do you know, without a doubt, that the wooden bridge would fall under you weight? Again, the answer is no. Is it possible that no matter which bridge you would choose, it would fall? Yes. Is it possible that both bridges could fall at the same time while you are on one of them? Yes. Is it possible that the old bridge could support you while the steel bridge would fall? Yes.



So why did you choose the new bridge? Because although, the alternative possibilities exist, they are all significantly less probable than the possibility of the new bridge falling under your weight. Because you don't know the future, no matter what choice you make, it is a choice which requires faith. You chose your faith based upon probability. You took the path of "least resistance”.

Can't have one without the other...;)

v/r

Q

 

InLove

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Unless absolutely necessary. (Just thought I would say that before you did, in case you were thinking of saying it.):)

InPeace,
InLove
 

THUNK

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Twinlove said:
Hello InLove and all,

Can I walk on water? Yes I can, I just do not posses the knowledge, as of yet, of how to do this, yet I have an inner knowing that I can.
Perhaps you derive comfort from your 'inner knowings' that help you get through life with a smile.

Religious types are to my mind 'seekers of comfort'.

Is your enlightened 'inner knowing' bright enough to direct you to spend your spare time in selfless PRACTICAL help of others doing hard work (not easy cop - out praying), BUT HARD GRAFT? God would surely prefer that to hours of adulation?
 

Quahom1

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THUNK said:
Perhaps you derive comfort from your 'inner knowings' that help you get through life with a smile.

Religious types are to my mind 'seekers of comfort'.

Is your enlightened 'inner knowing' bright enough to direct you to spend your spare time in selfless PRACTICAL help of others doing hard work (not easy cop - out praying), BUT HARD GRAFT? God would surely prefer that to hours of adulation?
Does spending the last 25 years saving lives and people's property for a living count? ;)

v/r

Q
 

Cerealkiller

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"Religious types are to my mind 'seekers of comfort'."


I had this conversation with an atheist once before, and I think I may even make a thread about it in the comparative religions forum, but I wanted to comment directly on this comment here.

My faith in God does not make me comfortable. It does not make me happier. It does not make me sleep easier. It terrifies me. There is a being in the Universe, which is all-powerful, all-knowing, infinitie, and it is watching me. This is scary. On top of that, I for one cannot except belief in God without a corrolary belief in less benevolent forces. God comes hand in hand with all manner of devils and whatnot. In short, I don't believe in God because it makes me comfortable, but because it is the truest thing I have stumbled upon in my lifetime.
 

THUNK

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Cerealkiller said:
"Religious types are to my mind 'seekers of comfort'."


I had this conversation with an atheist once before, and I think I may even make a thread about it in the comparative religions forum, but I wanted to comment directly on this comment here.

My faith in God does not make me comfortable. It does not make me happier. It does not make me sleep easier. It terrifies me. There is a being in the Universe, which is all-powerful, all-knowing, infinitie, and it is watching me. This is scary. On top of that, I for one cannot except belief in God without a corrolary belief in less benevolent forces. God comes hand in hand with all manner of devils and whatnot. In short, I don't believe in God because it makes me comfortable, but because it is the truest thing I have stumbled upon in my lifetime.
I consider most religious people to be 'seekers of comfort'.

Just because you say it 'terrifies' you, I suspect on balance you still find that your faith gives your life sense, direction and struture. This 'solidity' in an otherwise mean and complex world must give you comfort and a sense of purpose.

Your religion is the whino's Whisky. Despite the downsides you need it for comfort and structure.
 

Quahom1

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THUNK said:
...Your religion is the whino's Whisky. Despite the downsides you need it for comfort and structure.
You've never been a "Wino". Or else you would realize the fallacy of that statement.

v/r

Q
 

Nitai

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Hare Krishna

If you don't mind I would have some Vedic thoughts on this topic

# there are the tenets of the scriptures the basis of ones faith
# logic supporting and proving those tenets are beneficial
# logic going against the scriptural conclusions are not beneficial
# such logic is called mental speculation and
# it will destroy ones devotion and faith

## some try to understand God only with logic
## that is not possible
## REASON: God is called ACINTYA - INCONCEIVABLE
## thus He cannot be understood by argument and logic

* What to do?
* the Vedic wisdom say God is easily understood by devotion to Him
* REASON: God reveals Himself to His beloved devotee
* at that time the devotee is fully overwhelmed with love of God
* his faith becomes complete and perfect

CONCLUSION:
** cultivation of devotion to God is better than mental speculation
** logic that helps to understand the scriptures and that is supported by scriptures is helpful to some degree
** but ultimately it is by devotion that one can understand the inconceivable Supreme Lord.
 

InLove

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Hello, and Peace To All Here--

So many great thoughts in here--I should have been keeping up with this thread a little closer. (By the way, Twinlove--I guess I missed your post somehow. If you are still around, I hope you will accept my belated welcome? Beautiful avatar, by the way!)

What stands out to me in reading back over the replies is how many individuals from different backgrounds and faiths embrace this idea. (That may sound a little clumsy, but I did not want to say "belief systems" or "religions").

This really struck me when I read the last post by nitae--it does seem as if the Vedic thoughts are expressing what I was trying to express in my original statement:

To me, faith makes perfect sense. It is the ultimate Logic of Love. I see the spiritual aspect as being just as real (if not more so) than the physical. I also see the two in connection.
It brings me a smile to discover how surprised I am by all of this.:) .

InPeace,
InLove
 

Twinlove

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InLove,

Of course a late welcome is always accepted. After reading back through this thread myself, I have given this subject some deeper thought.

Consider this....In your instance which came first? Love or Faith...hopefully I can put this down in words that make some sense.

In my case I must have done something right to be blessed with the love that I have been gifted. Was this because of my faith? Since my recieving of this love my faith has increased which in return increases my love. There never seems to be a topping off. I can say that with me, my faith is defined by love and my love is defined by faith. Are they one and the same? Well they both continually increase at the same time and if we can substitute the word logic with the word truth(inner truth, true) which is based on love and faith, then I would say love and faith will never decrease because my heart knows the truth which completes me.

hmmmm...well I did my best to put it in words...
 

InLove

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Hello, Twinlove, Peace--

I think you have captured it well. That is how you set it free:) . The indwelling of the Spirit--the logic of Love....

InPeace,
InLove
 

Nitai

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Hare Krishna
Nice realizations and questions
# In your instance which came first? Love or Faith...
* In us first some faith have to be there to start spiritual life
* when we become purified from material attachments we attain love of God
* that love of God is the gift of God eternally residing in Him as we say God is love. And He certainly wants to distribute it to the sincere souls

# In my case I must have done something right to be blessed with the love that I have been gifted. Was this because of my faith?
* Vedas mention the experience of love in beginning stage of spiritual life. It is called abhasa or shadow. So, if you feel some love already now just imagine how much greater will be later. Actually, it is said that love of God is unlimited it is always increasing.

# my faith is defined by love and my love is defined by faith. Are they one and the same?
* they look like same but are different as well. Just like there is one fire which consists of heat and light.

# I would say love and faith will never decrease because my heart knows the truth which completes me.
* there are two dangers that can object the further development of love and even make you feel that the love you attained till now is decreasing.
* the two dangers are 1. to make offenses to the devotees of the Lord and to make offenses to the Lord Himself.
* I would say we should not make offenses to the people of any religion and not to make offenses to the worshipable Deities of people in any religion whether we accept The or not.

What do you think about all this?
 
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