Christians! Do you believe Mohammed's prophethood?

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by PersonaNonGrata, May 28, 2005.

  1. BlaznFattyz

    BlaznFattyz Active Member

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    the spirit, water, and blood are one. that is the renewal of lives, to be born again. when one asks God into his life, to take over, to ask for forgiveness, to worship him that is done in spirit. we have the ability to talk to God in spirit which god is. secondly is when one has devoted himself to loving god and following him,then as an outwardly gesture, it is water that renews our lives as baptism. just as jesus had done, as it pleases the Lord. jesus is also that living water, that you drink and never be thirsty again, once you repent the fountains of forgiveness are abundant. in blood, is the new covenant with our lord. it is in his blood that was shed for our sins, it is his blood that drink of in communion, it is thru his blood that there is salvation. all three the spirit, water, and the blood are all one in the showing of Gods love, grace, and relationship with him. he can renew us, and all three of the spirit, blood, and water have a part in that. similarly, whatever the father does, the holy spirit and the son do also.
     
  2. Saltmeister

    Saltmeister The Dangerous Dinner

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    Textual criticism: I didn't say "criticism" by itself. Textual criticism doesn't add anything. Textual criticism is where you examine manuscripts and the verses they contain and come to a decision on which one was the original verse. If all manuscripts have matching verses, there is no problem here. If the verses are different, you have to decide which one is more likely to have had earlier roots, and therefore has the best chance of being the authentic original. Look it up in wikipedia.

    Regarding "born of water" and "born of Spirit": No, I'm not in heaven.:) Here's how I think it works:

    A person who is not "born of the Spirit" does not have a connection with God. The Spirit is God's Spirit. A person "born of the Spirit" has a connectedness with God and His kingdom. There's a sense of belongingness between him and God, and being "born of the Spirit" gives you the kind of spiritual power that is experienced in that kingdom. (Hebrews 5:4-5) Those not "born of the Spirit" aren't connected to God or his Kingdom and don't sense that power. Water is symbolic of the physical and spirit is symbolic of the spiritual. I think the reason why "water" is used here is because water is a flowing substance, just like spirit. That's why "born of flesh" and "born of water" mean the same thing. They're both physical.

    Another point. You can only be "born of the Spirit" once. When you are "born again" in this world, I don't think it's a complete spiritual rebirth -- it's a partial spiritual rebirth. The spiritual rebirth is a process. If you neglect your spiritual life, you will slide back to square one and may have to start again. I think it makes more sense to see it that way.

    Faith ("Personal" being external): Well . . . I didn't say the "personal" was never external. There are two words here: intrapersonal and interpersonal. Intrapersonality is intimacy with yourself. Interpersonality is intimate knowledge of others. The word "personal" does not imply what you keep to yourself. It can also mean what you share you someone else. You may have secrets that you only share between yourself and God. You entrust those secrets with no-one else but God. There may also be secrets that God entrusts to you. You therefore have a personal relationship with God. You and God have a personal understanding of each other shared by nobody else.

    Faith (Having faith in someone based on what they tell you): What I was suggesting was very similar to what you said. It is necessary to analyse, study and examine the entity in which we put our faith. You can't exactly put your faith in an entity you don't quite understand. However, you don't have to know absolutely everything about him/her/it to put your trust in him/her/it. There is a limit to the amount of information you can extract and beyond that amount of information you will have to make a decision on whether to trust or not. Faith is the belief in something "deeper" that you probably haven't seen yet.

    Perhaps the difference between my view and your's is that I believe that faith is personal. You can't "put your trust" in an entity with no personality, as trust is personal. You can put your confidence in an impersonal entity, but not your trust. Faith may be based on either trust or confidence. My view of faith is based on trust, your's is based on confidence.

    Concerning the notion of God in Christianity, understanding God's personality is important. God expresses Himself in His religion. If one discerns that a message (which is an expression of God's will and purpose) doesn't match the way God has been known to express Himself, it may be doubtful that that message comes from God. In other words, that message can't be trusted. I can trust God, but how can I know a message comes from God? I must know His personality and character in order to know if it was really God or not. (1 John 4:1)



    Well, that's perhaps the critical point where you and I differ.:) I don't challenge the concept of gravity, as gravity is not part of spirituality. I don't see scientists, technicians, engineers, doctors, bureaucrats, psychologists, politicians and political scientists. etc. as today's prophets and apostles as they speak on matters of determinism.

    To me, science and spirituality are not the same thing. Spirituality is non-deterministic. Science is deterministic, usually quantitative and sometimes qualitative. Science is predictable and can be manipulated. However, this means that if faith relied on science and determinism, I would have trouble discerning between messages from God and some malign, mischievous trickster (possibly the devil), or impostor that seeks to sabotage my relationship with God. Because everything is deterministic, I wouldn't be able to discern between a message from a sincere God and manipulations from the malign trickster. I would have to use my knowledge of determinism to determine if the message has been used to manipulate me. But if the whole universe is deterministic, then the whole universe is itself a manipulation. Who, then do I trust?

    Spirituality, in my view, is not unpredictable. It is a kind of non-determinism that is predictable even if it isn't deterministic. It's just that you make qualitative assessments of someone else's behaviour and expressions in order to understand them. You can't understand them completely, but you have a fair idea of how they might think.
     
  3. Azure24

    Azure24 New Member

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    No.
    Yes.:)
     
  4. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    Kind of useless beating a dead horse...don't you think? :eek:

    v/r

    Q
     
  5. Saltmeister

    Saltmeister The Dangerous Dinner

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    Dead horse? Not sure what you mean . . . :confused:

    That was in response to cyberpi's post. That grew out of a whole chain of discussions that started with 1 John 5:7-8. It evolved out of what the original "the Spirit, the water and the blood" really meant and what Jesus was saying to Nicodemus in John 3.

    So what did I gain from that discussion? I got to know the point of view of someone who saw science and spirituality as one and the same, as opposed to my view that science and spirituality were separate. It was quite nice to be able to explore that with someone with a different view as opposed to one with the same view (which would be boring). It couldn't exactly be a pointless discussion if the "dead horse" talked back, could it?:D
     
  6. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    1. How many times is Mohammed mentioned in the bible?
    2. How many of Mohammed's words are recorded?
    3. How many of his prohecies are foretold in the bible?

    Answers
    1. None.
    2. None.
    3. None.

    So this being the fact, why would christians believe in your prophet?
     
  7. Dondi

    Dondi Active Member

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    It would, of course, be quite a feat to see Muhammed in the Bible, considering he didn't live for some 500 years after it was written. Now if he was foretold in the Bible, I'd might be inclined to consider him a prophet.
     
  8. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    Suuuurley though Dondi... if any person was seen as a prophet in the bible you would have to believe that. But heh Mohammed isn't seen as prophet connected to the bible so yeah....
     
  9. Amica

    Amica Member

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    Peace.

    When it comes to 'peace faith' topic, Christians are quickly abandoning their acceptance of the OT's teachings on warfare, yet when you ask them, they believe in the same God of Hebrews. However, their actions spoke differently throughout the ages (even in the present!).

    There were Christians long time ago whose Christian believes caused other Christians around them to call crusade like wars against them. Bosnian Bogumils, it is said, did not believe in cross, the icons, the baptism, etc. They had their own church, and called themselves Christians/Bogumils (the dearn ones to God). They were a tolerant, peaceful people who did not mingle their religious believes with the politics of their state in Bosnia. Unfortunately, their Catholic and Christian Orthodox brethren were unsatisfied and attacked them numerous times of their existance.

    When the Ottoman Turks came to the Balkans, despite the initial warlike situation, the Bosnian Christian Bogumils converted to Islaam. Many argue that their understanding of the Chrisitan teachings caused the conversion because of the similarities.

    Today's Chrisitianity must go against the message of Qur'an because how else can they explain this: a god who incarnated in order to kill himself for the humanity or a a god who kills his son for the humanity. The Qur'an, like the OT, demand Oness of God. It is easy for today's Christians to 'negate' Jewish refusal about the Trinity simply by claiming that the NT is the update of the first Revelation. But the current state of their dogma is unable to battle with the Holy Qur'an that preaches about Hebrew God (Universal God)--even some Jews are voicing that the Muslims also believe in the God of OT (the God being One and the Same for Jews and Muslims) because the Book declares there is no trinity and Jesus is simply a human beling, chosen to deliver the Message.
     
  10. Francis king

    Francis king New Member

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  11. Prober

    Prober Give Us This Day...

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    I almost converted to Islam. This was my biggest struggle. I could accept all the other tenets, but I just couldn't get to the point where I believed in his prophethood (not that I disbelieve).

    I'm open-minded. There are so many good things about Islam. It's a powerful thing to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with your brothers in prayer. And when they prayed to "remember our brothers in Afganistan, Chechnya and Iraq", it reminded me how God loves all of us NO MATTER WHAT.

    It was more natural for me to be a Christian as I was brought up that way. But, the main reason I'm a Christian is because God's love for me is such a powerful thing. And it meshes with the responsibility to love others.

    I'll always have a special place in my heart for my Muslim brothers.
     
  12. farhan

    farhan Active Member

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  13. BlaznFattyz

    BlaznFattyz Active Member

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  14. farhan

    farhan Active Member

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    Regarding Quran, I feel its uncorrupted because all of it was dictated by Muhammad to his companians in his life time. Most of it was present in written form; it was recited five times a day each day, & multiple times other than Salah. In the words of Dr.Hamidullah,

    "The sources all agree in stating that whenever a fragment of the Quran was revealed, the Prophet called one of his literate companions and dictated it to him, indicating at the same time the exact position of the new fragment in the fabric of what had already been received . . . Descriptions note that Muhammad asked the scribe to reread to him what had been dictated so that he could correct any deficiencies . . . Another famous story tells how every year in the month of Ramadan, the Prophet would recite the whole of the Quran (so far revealed) to Gabriel . . ., that in the Ramadan preceding Muhammad's death, Gabriel had made him recite it twice . . . It is known how since the Prophet's time, Muslims acquired the habit of keeping vigil during Ramadan, and of reciting the whole of the Quran in addition to the usual prayers expected of them. Several sources add that Muhammad's scribe Zaid was present at this final bringing-together of the texts. Elsewhere, numerous other personalities are mentioned as well."

    Two years after his death, single volume was present. Later on , an standard version (based on Quraishite dialect) came into existence within 20 years after his death. Copies of this one are present in Istanbul & Samarqand even today, in its original language.

    Regarding Bible, part of Torah is supposed to be written by Moses ( although sources disagree ) . Nevi'im contains words of God, words of prophets & words of humans; nobody exactly knows which are spoken by whom. Same is the case with Ketuvium. Gospels were written decades after Jesus, & he didn’t dictate them. It includes the life/teachings of Jesus in Human words. Jesus Christ neither himself wrote or compiled any of the Gospels nor he asked his disciples to do so. It is more like the Sunnah texts in Islam (Although all sunnah text comes with a chain of narrators).We don’t even know who were the actual writers. And there is still no reason why the church selected only 4 gospels out of many. Then we have acts/letters that are obviously no divine work.

    Other than the problem of its being or not being from God, another problem is translation. Moses spoke Hebrew, & Jesus Aramaic. We don’t have anything in these languages. And there cant be such thing as “perfect translation”. Muslims witness this problem while reading Quranic translations. There arise dozens of weird problems that can’t be solved without going back to original text. But with bible, there is no original text.

    So, nobody exactly knows where God ends & where Man begins. But it still has the words of God & the words of prophets in it. Anything that goes against the teachings of Quran in the bible is not considered by Muslims to be the word of God, because this is the only standard that Muslims have, to differentiate God’s words from human words.

    When exactly Jesus became “The only begotten of God”, & when exactly was his crucifixion officialised . See the links below.

    Divinity & Trinity
    http://www.islam-guide.com/ch3-10-1.htm
    http://www.sultan.org/articles/pjncd.html
    http://www.islamtomorrow.com/bible/son_of_who.asp
    http://www.irf.net/irf/comparativereligion/middle/christianity/conceptofgod.htm
    http://www.islamtomorrow.com/bible/sons_of_god.htm
    http://thetruereligion.org/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=133

    How Jesus became God
    http://www.islamtomorrow.com/bible/Arianism.asp
    http://www.islamtomorrow.com/bible/NicaeaCouncil325.htm

    Crucifixion & Resurrection
    http://www.jamaat.net/deedat.htm
    http://www.jamaat.net/crux/crucifixion.html
    http://www.jamaat.net/resurr/Resurrect.htm
    http://www.jamaat.net/stone/TheStone.html
    http://www.jamaat.net/jonah/signofjonah.html
    http://www.jamaat.net/gtnw/god.html
    http://www.al-sunnah.com/truth.htm

    True message of Jesus Christ
    THE TRUE MESSAG OF JESUS CHRIST
    Muhammed, The Natural Successor To Christ --- By Ahmed Deedat
     
  15. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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  16. BlaznFattyz

    BlaznFattyz Active Member

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    my argument would be many witnesses over periods of time rather than dictation from one within a lifetime.

    if the bible has prophecies hundreds of years before christ, witnesses during christ, and apostles after christ all saying the same thing that the Lord that proceeds from the Lord will be our salvation through his resurrection. For all these people over this period of time to all say the same thing, to have interwoven scripture is remarkable and is a testament to the power of god and his plan to reconcile man.

    then to have one person adopt some of what was already said, add and subtract from it, inject cultural embellishments into it, ignore the words of prophets and the words of jesus christ but center it all around one voice, change it, is called straying away from the source. because islam adopts some of what was already given to gods people the jews of the old covenant and then to everyone of the new covenant sure there are going to be some good things borrowed into islam and that is a good start if that is all you have ever known. then all one has to do is weed out what is just man made cultural doctrine that men insert to justify their behaviour and lifestyle, and what are righteous words of god. but you would probably find out, once that is done, you are left with the holy bible.
     
  17. Saltmeister

    Saltmeister The Dangerous Dinner

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    What exactly is the problem with human speculation?

    God created us. The minds we have were created by God. The ability to discover God, discover what He wants for us, to establish a personal and intimate connection with God, would be a great achievement on the part of God. In other words, the Ideal, Supreme God, could, in theory, be one that doesn't need a perfectly written text to convey His intentions to us. Why not just let us figure it out for ourselves? Do you not think that such a God would be greater than one who has to deploy a perfectly written Text to us, one without error?

    My view is that the Bible was a result of God initiating a process of discovery and exploration of the concept and story of God and humanity. Even if God didn't write the Bible, God can still take credit for creating beings (us) that could write the Bible and use it as a stepping stone in the process of discovering Him. Even if the work wasn't perfect, it could, still lead us to God.

    In that sense, you could say that the device/instrument/system deployed was not the Bible or Quran but our minds. The Bible was something ordained as the work that resulted from our discovery and exploration of concepts about God and humanity. Our minds were the systems deployed for the purpose of discovering God, the work of writing and studying Bible was the work ordained for us. Do you see my point? In this alternate perception of reality, I am saying that God didn't deploy a perfectly written Text, but instead invited us to discover who He was. He allowed us to use whatever space and time that was available us, a part of which was used to write the Bible.

    To me, a relationship with God is far more important than determining correct scientific, medical or social practices. Understanding God is about understanding people. Understanding ourselves. The Bible's focus is on human relationships and interactions, not the way we organise the world in which we live. The attitudes, emotions, interactions and expressions of sentient beings take precedence over the way the world is organised. My point is sentimental harmony, sentimental values and personal dignity over utilitarian efficiency. The Bible isn't so much concerned about utilitarian efficiency/proficiency as it is about the personal dignity as people. It's to do with the human need to be known, valued, appreciated and understood.

    The idea of a perfectly written Text has to do with the idea of utilitarian proficiency -- "perfection" in the systematic sense of a Text ordained by God having no faults anywhere in its context. But not all the things in a written Text have value to everyone at the same time and place, and it's different from person to person. The minds God has given us allow us to filter out unimportant details. Some "faults" are unimportant. If you endorse the view that everything in a written Text ordained by God must be "perfect without flaw," then you're treating human beings like machines!!! In other words, human beings are like coin-operated machines and the words in the Bible/Quran are like coins. The wrong coin may destroy the machine!!!

    But human beings aren't machines!!! We think. We evaluate. We judge. We decide. Our minds filter out irrelevant details in order to work out the true meaning of a passage in the Bible/Quran. Good communication requires that we get the most important details out first, because the receiver/listener/reader's thinking is influenced by what we convey as important. In the New Testament, Paul explains what love means in 1 Corinthians 13. Love is considered to be important, and considering that it's important, why not explain it? But what does the Quran say about love? Does the Quran explain love? Is love explained and expressed through rules and regulations or through words that conceptualise our thoughts directly as in 1 Corinthians 13?

    True, one Text may have errors, but the Text that is perfect but doesn't address important issues or explain important concepts is no better.

    A perfect and incorrupt text has only utilitarian value -- this treats human beings like machines that are operated by coins -- machines that can't tell the difference between good coins and bad coins -- machines that can't evaluate and judge what you give to them. A Text that addresses important concepts like love and having the right attitude has sentimental value. There is room to explain more because human existence presents a vast world of possibilities. But then again, important concepts must be addressed. The New Testament may be relatively short, but still rich in meaning.

    To me, the Bible has sentimental value because it focuses on human relationships, human sentiment and human interactions.

    Utilitarian value or sentimental value -- which do you prefer?

    I prefer a Text that explains and conveys concepts with sentimental value. I don't consider myself to be a coin-operated machine that can't evaluate and judge the coins I am receiving.:)

    Do I believe in Mohammed's prophethood? That depends. Does the Quran explain important concepts? If so, does it deal with them appropriately? Does it conceptualise our thoughts and feelings directly as Paul did in 1 Corinthians 13?
     
  18. SpiritualInquietudes

    SpiritualInquietudes New Member

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    Yes I believe Mohammed was a prophet. Though I grew up in the church and sort of still consider myself a Christian (I'm more Gnostic now), I would never have said this previously while growing up in the church. I think the church has perverted a lot of teachings about Jesus. I believe that everyone has some aspect of divinity as we are all made in the image of God (Allah). This is a very important concept because it means that we can become closer to God by expanding our own consciousness.

    In the Qu'ran I know that Muhammad says something like "God forbid he beget a son!" I think he's referring to the literal usage of this idea. Jesus has divine aspects and can heal people etc. and thus, is the Son of God because God gave birth to Jesus (metaphorically) in a spiritual context. God is not a man upstairs with a big white beard. He's never described as such because it is so unfathomable for us as human beings to understand God's awesomeness. This is why we worship him.

    Jesus as the Son of God is the Son of God as he has fused with his Divinity that God gave him. Jesus worked so hard to be the Messiah. If he was exactly God then there is no way he would have to work this hard. However, Jesus is Divine because no other could have sacrificed himself like he did.

    So, what Muhammad says about Jesus, is absolutely correct. God is not a person. God is more than this, he is an essence, he is love, he is all that is pure in the world but he is the Creator of all people and all religions.

    I believe that these religions go together VERY well. Though it may appear they don't on the outside, and it is very hard to define and to explain it. Jesus (pbuh) is a blessing to all of humanity. And so was Muhammad (pbuh).

    I could end up changing my way of thinking of this. As it's been hard for me to define the differences. So don't take it for Gospel or Qu'ran. ;)
     
  19. Saltmeister

    Saltmeister The Dangerous Dinner

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    It almost sounds like Judaism, Christianity and Islam are merely different languages for expressing how we feel about the one God.

    Some people just don't understand the language . . .
     
  20. SpiritualInquietudes

    SpiritualInquietudes New Member

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    Absolutely! The Scriptures of each religion were revealed to different societies so I think your perspective is very logical!! I don't understand why it has to be one or the other. It simply creates an excuse to fight. God knows is written and what he wanted the apostles to say to each group. We are his creatures and it his alone to know and understand. :) We are simply his followers, Submitters, or Muslims. That's what's nice about the word Muslim and Islam, it doesn't just refer to people of the Qu'ran necessarily, but anyone who wishes to Submit to God.
     

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