Mark of the Beast

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by Amica, Jun 25, 2005.

  1. Amica

    Amica Member

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    Salaam/peace to all.

    People who have been studying the biblical prophecies are looking at the history and current events, trying to interpret what they mean. Some say that the first beast has come, and that the second one is on the rise. Others believe the first one is rising, the second one is yet to come. Which is true?

    Hard to say. What do we know of the second beast, according to the Holy Bible (Revelation 13)
    a) professing to be like the Lamb--that is, it will profess the peace and love; a harlot church--the one professing Christianity but in works won't be as such
    b) will speak like a dragon--could be through demand of following around the world or through its military arsenal?
    c) will do wonders-- causing 'fire falling from the heavens' as the Revelation reveals; perhaps bombs?
    d) will have the mark--one won't be able to buy or sell without it

    Some believe that the mark is symbolic and symbolizes the following:
    a) its name--a special name that the ones supporting the teachings of the beast will have; could be a group, a nation, or a sect?
    b) its #--an ID perhaps?
    c) mark on the forehead--perhaps those who think the same as the beast will be 'marked' by agreeing with the beast
    d) mark on the hand--helping the beast in its efforts

    People have different theories who the second beast is/will be. Any of you have any thoughts? I personally found some information on the internet that is speculating that the current affairs in the US signify that the US is the second beast. They justify their conclusions by:
    a) US is experiencing growing evangelization straight from the White House--religous right
    b) US is helping the Rise of Babylon (controls Iraq--the place of ancient Babylon)
    c) VeriChip is produced by a US firm and might be used as a 'security' against 'terrorists'
    d) US government professes peace, yet tells the world: you are with us or against us, meaning anyone opposing its actions are to be killed/opressed; 'democracy' seems to be demanded by Bush administration from those nations that are both Islamic and non-Islamic (Russia, China, Korea, etc)
    e) US produced the bomb, causing 'fire falling from heavens'


    Those are the things I found over the internet. What are your thoughts? Is the US democracy going to give rise to the Antichrist?

    Peace.
     
  2. smkolins

    smkolins Bahá'í

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    I know of Baha'i references that make all this more or less ancient history, especially about early Islam and the way it split. Recall that Baha'is do not view the religions as simply independent/unrelated. Islam was the natural successor to Christianity in that day, but Islam suffered a cataclysm which today lives on as the Sunni/Shi split. Thus these prophecies in Christianity are actually about early Islam - a direction regretably the west is not likely to look at. At the core of the split is the story of the Ummayyad clan and Ali, the Commander of the Faithful, and his succession of sons. The metaphorical beasts are, in Baha'i sources, the Ummayyad clan leaders several of whom became Caliphs and implimented Islam in deplorable ways which ultimately became the basis of the Shi split.

    As an example of the issue I offer these calculations. It is widely known Jesus was not born at 0AD - more likely just before 4BC. If He was born 5 BC then 661 AD is 666 - yes, the number of the beast - AD. This is the year Islam suffered irreperable schism in a civil war that is supposed to be impossible.

    As for the US - well Baha'i sources suggest that *if/when* America learns it's spiritual lessons it will lead the world into a bright, a very bright future.
     
  3. Amica

    Amica Member

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    Hi,

    I have a question. If you are saying that the split in Islam is the prophecy from Revelation and the number 666, the beast mark, the year of islamic split then what does this have to do with the economy?

    According to Jesus' pbuh disciple John, from Revelation 13 the sign of the second beast, the earth beast is 666 and it is a man. His mark is either his name or his number (man's number, according to John). Suposedly, this mark is forced on people's foreheads and right hands and whoever refuses it is killed. Also, according to John this mark determines who is able to buy or sell. According to your sources is there anything similar that happened (trade issues) during the rain of the Umayyads? And I believe Umayyads ruled longer than 42 months (John mentions the reign of the second beast as 42 months).
     
  4. smkolins

    smkolins Bahá'í

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    The Ummayyad were the dominant economic and political powers of the Arabian area before Islam and regained their place early in the spread of Islam - and when they did they did not largely follow the Qur'an's rules. For example there are various taxes related to whether one is a Moslem or not. If not Moslem, one is excused from various social requirements but in compensation extra taxes are to be paid. But the Ummayyad applied these laws not according to whether one was or was not Moslem but whether one was Arab or not. So other populations that converted to Islam were unfairly required to serve (yes, Moslem) but also taxed. So the Ummayyad Caliphate's implimentation of tax structure required some people to obey with hand (pay the tax) or the mind (be Moslem and serve.)

    The 42 months - typically a month according to prophetic interpritation is 30 days, each day a year. So 42 months is 1260 days -> years. According to Islam a year is a lunar calendar, and 1260 years is the duration of the Moslem calendar to the appearence of the prophetic fulfillement, which happens to fit Christian prophecies leading to the year 1844 (in otherwords 1844 AD(Christian) is exactly 1260 AH (Islam.)
     
  5. Amica

    Amica Member

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    Peace/salaam

    I mean no offense to you, but I believe you are confused. Here are my reasonings behind this statement:
    1) you calculate the reign of the second beast as prophecized from the Bible as the years leading to the Umayyad dynasty (661 CE-750 CE)
    2) from Revelation 13, it is clear that the second beast is to rule the world, making everyone worship the first beast
    3) the mark of the beast is its name or his number

    Evidence against your claims:
    1) Two witnesses the Bible mention are supposed to appear during the first beasts regime= this has not happened during the Islamic time; the two witnesses are to be prophecizing for 42 months, that is for 1260 days (Rev. 10-11); according to John Rev. 13, the first beast, the sea beast, is ruling for 42 months
    2) The second beast, called the earth beast according to Revelation 13, will perform signs, such as fire from heaven= while the Islamic leaderships after Prophet Muhammad's pbuh death have expanded islamic influence, the military did not cause bombs falling from skies or any kind of fire.
    3) The second beast is the one with the mark, not the first beast. It is not specified in the Bible how long the second beast is to last.
    4) According to John, the first beast (the scarlet beast) from Revelation 17: a) once was, b) during John's time it was not and c) it will be.
    Islam did not come before either Christianity or Judaism as a monotheistic faith, and neither did the Umayyads. If John says that the beast 'once was' it means it came before Christ pbuh.
    5) During the reign of the second beast that will impose the worship of the first beast, the Babylon the great is supposed to appear. As far as I know, idolatry has been suppressed in the land of Babylon (geographically; today's Iraq) with the influences of monotheism.
    6) Islam does not confirm beliefs in idols.
    7) The beast with the mark, the second beast, is supposed to be so strong that the world is not able to supress it. As far as I know, while the Islamdom's empire has been strong for a while, it did not control the whole world. There still existed Christiandom, Jews, there still existed Buddihsts in China and polytheists elsewhere.
     
  6. Amica

    Amica Member

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    One more thing:

    1) Muslims do not call themselves as 'Umayyads'. During the dynasty's reign there never had been Muslims called Umayyads, so the name of the second beast, if you believe Umayyads to be so, does not apply. Neither were the rest of the world called Umayyads by force or Muslims. Yes, you will say some have been forced to convert to Islam. I do not deny that, so did other non-islamic regimes call force other people to convert to their religions in their time, but not whole world was caused to receive Islam or else no trade for them.
    2) Even though the Islamic empire was strong in economy does not mean they forced everyone to accept their religion in order for trade to happen. As a matter of fact, history does not show that. No?
    3) You say that the Umayyads were prominent in the pre-Islamic era in regards to the economy. It still does not qualify them for either the first or the second beast:
    a) Umayyad dynasties rulers promoted Islam, not paganism.
    b) Umayyads did not dominate the world in the pre-islamic era
    c) the first beast was supposed to be strong and opressive ruler
    d) by your calculations from the birth of Jesus Christ 4BC to the
    Umayyad rule was 1260 years. No records show that the
    Umayyads existed for thousand of years.
    e) even if the Umayyads existed for 1260 years according to your
    calculations, then they were supposed to be in hide during the
    time John wrote Revelation and emerge again to rule the world
    after the call of the second beast. Where are the two biblical
    witnesses then?
    f) Since we know that the reign of the second beast will cause
    the emergence of the first beast, the Antichrist, it is obvious
    that the prophecy of Revelation has not been fullfilled during
    the rise of Islam.
     
  7. Bandit

    Bandit New Member

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    i think you are on target with this Amica.
    i dont think they had a clue even up to 100 years ago what we are seeing in all of this today.:)
    seems to me, they started to raise there heads around the 70s.

    some claim this was all written for Rome & an earlier time(s). that is not what i see at all.
     
  8. smkolins

    smkolins Bahá'í

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    I understand - it is hardly possible such an interpritation would be viewed any other way, as it turns the views of two large religions, and thousands of years of each religion's understandings, quite on it's ear, so to speak.

    Interpriting prophecy must seem a very difficult thing. Everyone has a view.

    Please note my contributions are but small parts about which whole books have been written. For example there is this book. There are also central references here and here and some elaboration here though these reference do not exhaust the topic.

    Muhammad and Ali are the two Witnesses. However, a point by point arguments of these and others would be an excercize in details and energy of post/counter post. I refer you to the above quotes for a more exhaustive review. For our purposes here, polite discussion, I will comment briefly on a few of your points.

    If Islam's role in history was compromised by the Ummayyad, then efforts to mirror forth the way they implimented it would continue to raise the false approach again and again - a kind of idolatry, no? People can raise all kinds of things in the name of God, of which He has no part. Again idolatry.

    The definition of the world has certainly changed over time. In addition some of the contributions of Islam, not in falsehood, have indeed transformed the globe. Sherifs are of Moslem origin, as is public sanitation (sewer systems and such) and other things.

    But before we get lost in endless details, let me state emphatically that this is in no way a condemnation of Islam, the Qur'an, Muhammad or the attempts of Moslems over the centuries to bring truth to light in matters of civilization and art and science and fields of thought and endevour beyond easy counting. Examples can be found here, here, here, and here without coming close to exhausting the contributions.

    To maintain on the one hand such claims of prophecy in the history of Islam on the one hand, and lauding Islam in so many ways on the other will require to reader to maintain some understanding of the details involved.

    Being fair minded to the history and present condition of Islam as well as other religions must note certain conditions not inherent to the Revelations of God, His Messengers, or even of the religions resulting. Notable among these is schism. Understand that and it will help with the above.
     
  9. smkolins

    smkolins Bahá'í

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    One? You have a strange way of counting...

    If it were possible to erase the Ummayyad from history, no Moslem today would recognize their Faith except for the fact of the Qur'an. Unfortunately it is absolutely impossible to look at the whole of Islam at any time without noting the impact the Ummayyad have had on it. Symbolically, are they not just as the stiff necked Jews and the Christians that role back on their heals?

    The Ummayyad were once all powerful, but dynasties rose to follow them.

    I said no such thing. From Jesus' possible birth in 5 BC to the AD year 661 is 666 years. That's one thing, alone onto itself. It is simple fact.

    The rule of Islam, always affected by man's obstinancy to the Word of God, in the form of at first the Ummayyad dynasty, and then dynasties after them in their image, last down from the founding of Islam when it was opposed by the Ummayyad down some 1260 years is the other date/calculation you convolute. Then prophetic fullfilment comes to play, in your expectations of the Anti-Christ, and for that matter, Christ.

    If John the Baptist was Elijah, then certainly Muhammad and Ali could be "other" people and the "same" people circa 1260 years of Islam's calendar. But to find Them will require the same dedication to God above anything man has ever said. Has God ever changed His ways? God forbid!
     
  10. smkolins

    smkolins Bahá'í

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    Of the dragon:

    7 heads
    1 wounded, yet heals
    10 horns


    As I understand it from history books(got one open next to me here) the Ummayyad Caliphs as a dynasty were:
    Mu'awiyah I (661-680), who was poisoned unto death yet lived
    Yazid I (680-683),
    Mu'awiyah II (683-684),
    Marwan I (684-685),
    'Abdu'l-Malik (685-705)
    Al-Walib I (705-715)
    Sulayman (715-717)
    'Umar (717-720)
    Yazid II (720-724)
    Hisham (724-743)
    Al-Walib II (743-744)
    Yazid III (744)
    Ibrahim (744)
    Marwan II (744-750)

    which by the way reduces to 9 names, to which one may add Uthman - of the Umayyad but before this dynasty but still a Caliph. 10 names.

    And they ruled 7 regions -
    from Damascus,the dominion of Syria-Palestine;
    Persia/Iran,
    Arabia,
    Egypt,
    the dominion of rest of north Africa;
    the dominion of Andalusia, which is now Spain
    and the dominion of the Turks, mostly modern Turkey.

    Again, an illustration of the sundry details of the prophecy.
     
  11. Amica

    Amica Member

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    Thank you for the references. I will read them first before I reply to them.

    You say that Muhammad pbuh and Ali r.a. were the two witnesses the Bible mentions. I must say that that is unlikely. For these reasons. According to John, the two witnesses are:
    a) preaches of God's word: while Muhammad pbuh was a prophet of God, Ali was not. Ali was a political leader, but not a prophet. He did not preach Word of God, Ali followed it.
    b) the two witnesses are to be killed by the beast from Abyss: while Ali r.a. was killed, Muhammad pbuh died a natural death.
    c) the two biblical witnesses are to be resurrected: neither Muhammad pbuh or Ali r.a. were resurected after being killed.
    d) the two witnesses would have supernatural powers to kill others with fire from their mouths: both Muhammad pbuh and Ali ra were worriors for freedom of Muslims and Islam as faith but did not posses supernatural powers to kill others. Muhammad pbuh as a prophet, according to the Islamic tradition, was protected by angels and God Almighty in war, but did not kill others by supernatural means of his own.
    e) the two witnesses are to preach for 42 months: in your calculations, that would be 1260 years. Obviously, neither Muhammad pbuh or Ali ra preached God's Word for 1260 years.
    f) mockery over the witnesses bodies: so far, Muslims burried both Ali ra and Prophet Muhammad pbuh in a respectable manner. Umayyads, did not make mockery out of their bodies.
    g) Umayyads may have succeeded Ali ra but did not kill Muhammad. The Bible says that both witnesses are to be killed by the beast from the Abyss.
    In regards to the :

    Of the dragon:

    7 heads
    1 wounded, yet heals
    10 horns


    In regards to the Umayyad who lived even though he almost died due to poison. He would have to blasphem in order to qualify for one of the 10 kings.
    You probably allude to the fact that the Qur'an is compiled into the offical form we have today during the rule of the Umayyads, and probably think that one of the 'blasphemies' of Umayyad's is "the damage" done to the Qur'an.
    The Qur'an can be memorized very easily if a person is dedicated to it. Once you learn a surah from it, you are bound to remember it for the rest of your life. Witness to that are many in islamic countries today who are able to memorize the whole of the Qur'an and can't forget it. So, during the compilation of the Qur'an, there still existed people who memorized it to the fullest.
    In order to blasphem, I would think, one needs to contradict God Almighty, not have people learn his Word. I would say that those claiming to be God/dieties of any sort are blasphemers rather, such as were roman emperors.

    The 10 Umayyad kings you mention, again do not seem to be the 10 kings mentioned in the prophecy. John states that 5 kings have fallen, alluding that the first five have come before John, 1 was ruling during John's time and the other was to come, the 8th king. That would mean only one of the Umayyads was to come before the Appocalypse, not 10 of them.

    And don't forget the whore as mentioned in the Bible. She is to be a religion perhaps of certain kind. She is a woman clothed in sun (meaning that she would preach divinity), with moon under her feet (moon representing: chastity, divinity, beauty, masculinity, femininity, immortality, eternity; feet representing= humility) with crown (sovereignity) of twelve stars (stars=divinity). She is the woman sitting ont eh scarlet beast of 7 heads (7 hills of where she sits) and 10 horns (the 10 kings she prostitutes with). She holds golden cup of filth (gold=wealth, cup=life, flith=well we know what kind of life this may allude to). Everyone is drunk of her wine of adultery (wine=transformation). So the spiritual prostitution, blasphemy. She is the Babylon the great prostitute.
    The prostitute is home to demons and luxuries, giving riches to kings.
    The prostitute is to rule during the reign of the 8th king, the beast.

    So, where is the prostitute? You will probably say its Islam (God Almighty forgive!).
     
  12. Amica

    Amica Member

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    Umayyads perhaps ruled during the wealth of Islamdom, but Islamdom's power declined greately.
    If one is to say that Islam 'is the prostitute Babylon' then it was not killed. Supposedly, the beast and the kings will kill the prostitute.

    So far, only one religious institution sits upon 7 hills, holds worlds greatest riches due to persecution from the past, its representative claims to be God's representative on earth, some of its preachers are clothed in scarlet and purple, have apointed ambasador's to the world's nations, etc.

    I personally do not think that the mark of the Beast or anything related to it have anything to do with Islam, its Prophet pbuh, the Holy Qur'an or its followers.
     
  13. smkolins

    smkolins Bahá'í

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    So much is determined by what we wish to see. O that the city of men's hearts might bear the light of the Lord!
     
  14. stevemb88

    stevemb88 Member

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    You are right Amica, I was watching an "End of Times" show on some church network with which i agreed and it does seem that America is going to have a large part in the End Times along with The Western World. Pertaining to the mark of the beast, on the show that I watched the pastor brought up a very good point, you have no doubt heard of the ID cards that the US is planing on issuing to the entire nation, well Canada, Mexico and Great Britain are thinking about having ID cards of their own and making them all compatible with each other and it does seem like a huge step in the wrong direction, but thats my opinion!:confused:
     
  15. Bandit

    Bandit New Member

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    yep. the bible speaks the truth from Gen to Rev.
    then the ID card will have your religion printed on it also, just like some countries have already done.
    & no one is going to stop it from coming to pass.
     
  16. Amica

    Amica Member

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    Hi!

    Wow, I have not heard of the ID cards. Where can I learn more about them?
    Many people are not sure what the mark would be like. Some believe it is rather symbolical, others believe it will appear literal. Of course, my guess would be that, since religious Christians are expecting the prophecy to come true, perhaps the Antichrist regime would want to mask the mark to deceive the masses. I would imagine that Christians would raise alarms, just like it happened with the VeriChip.
    I heard that the VeriChip is proposing to use the chip for anti-terrorist purposes. Many Christians oppose such a thing and believe that if VeriChip gets approved, that it will fullfill St. John's prophecy.
     
  17. Bandit

    Bandit New Member

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    i think it is going to be just like credit cards. it will appear to be a good thing at first & everyone will fall for it being the answer to stop problems like theft & terrorism. then once it is in place there will be no stopping it & it is just a matter of time because the generation behind us will not know the difference. IMO
    this has been around for decades:( , & used often during war time, but never on a global scale in every day life or just for buying & selling.

    all of my dogs have microchips in there heads for ID & we know they do not test things on animals unless they have some thought on using it with humans later.
    i have been watching trends like this very closely for about 25 years.
    here are a couple of pages but if you want recent studies & individual cases on the issue, let me know by way of a PM.



    http://www.preventgenocide.org/prevent/removing-facilitating-factors/IDcards/


    http://www.no2id.net/
     
  18. smkolins

    smkolins Bahá'í

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    I continue to look forward to your thoughtful consideration of them.
     
  19. Amica

    Amica Member

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    Hi ;)

    What is interesting to me is that even thogh the ID cards are certainly one way of controling the masses, it still can be fooled. One can lie about their religion on their ID cards, because who is to say what the person's personal beliefs are really?

    I remember in the old communist Yugoslavia, all non-Christians (Muslims, Jews, Gypsies, etc) had to declare themselves to be one of the following: a) Croat, b) Serb and c) undecided/Yugoslav. Jews were almost never involved in any political issues and almost never mentioned except for the Holocoust. Muslims were written with small 'm' signifying that they were not considered that important in Yugoslavia. Islam was with purposeful idea proclaimed to be a nationality rather than faith in Yugoslavia, but one still could not declare themselves as Muslim in his/her ID card. Hence, during the Bosnian War, everyone new Bosnian Muslims not as Bosniacks but as 'Muslims' as nationality, not a people of islamic faith with nationality of Bosniacks.

    I don't know... I think ID cards perhaps could be one way of controling the masses, but won't be very controlling. A white Muslim can lie about their faith on the ID card if they want to, especially if they have a name that does not automatically connect them to Arabia.

    John speaks of trade and the number/mark. Unless one has to have a specific ID only for trade, then perhaps this would be different.
     
  20. Bandit

    Bandit New Member

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    i dont think they are being fooled Amica from the current things that i see. i dont think it is about controlling masses like marshal law or who does drugs, but finding out who is who in there beliefs- like a filter or sifter.
    they are not interested in who serves 'God', they want to know who serves Jesus & these are the ones being denied spending money & loans & things to fix or build there churches. they are held in unfair trials with accusations where they are not allowed to defend themselves, then imprisoned because there ID states a specific belief & not just something about God or 'A' religion. this religion on an ID has a very long list of cases that you may not be aware of.

    if i lie about what i believe, then that would be the same as denying what i believe & WHO i believe in. the only thing i see, is it is not on a global scale but within certain countries.
    i hope that makes sense.:)
     

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