Is it cool to beat your wife?

Awaiting_the_fifth

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I took this from the "Women" thread in the islamic section. Since tensions were running high there I thought it best to bring my opinions on this matter to the comparative board.

I understand this is a direct translation from the Quran

Al-Nisa 4:34
Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allah and to their husbands), and guard in the husbands absence what Allah orders them to guard (e.g. their chastity, their husbands property, etc.). As to those women on whose part you see illconduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly, if it is useful), but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, Allah is Ever Most High, Most Great. "

I was shocked when I saw this. I was raised in a society where violence of any kind against women is totally unnaceptable.

I know that Islam is probably not the only faith who's holy book condones such things, but it is a problem that the Quran is considered to be the unarguable word of God. (i.e such statements in the Bible or Torah could be disregarded as ancient cultural ideosyncracies.

My opinion is that there can be no excuse whatsoever for a man to hit his wife. I am eager to hear other opinions.
 

Cerealkiller

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You know I used to share your total black and white view that it is always wrong for a man to hit a woman, until the first time my ex-girlfriend punched me in the face. I think there are times when the only appropriate response to a person is violence, however I don't think "disobedience" is one of those times. A woman is not a child to be spanked for not following orders, she is (or at least should be if you are in a relationship together) an equal to be dealt with as such. That means that if she wants to begin a fight, a man has every right to finish it. But it also means that a man should not be issuing out commands and becoming irate when his wife fails to obey.
 

shunammite

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In the resurrection there is no giving or taking in marriage and in Christ there is no male or female. And yet the Word of God is "eternal"...so...there must be other meaning besides the "obvious".

I think every person is both male and female. It's actually true, we all have testosterone and estrogen. And there is a wide range of maleness to femaleness ratios...in both men and women...I mean, we've got Richard Simmons and Janet Reno, e.g....

But I think the idea is "male" is more about pure reason and "female" is more about "pure feeling"...and the wife is likened to the man's "flesh" which is where the feeling takes place...and he is warned of what happens if he ignores his flesh...in fact...a person without feeling is a LEPER...very bad thing...

BUT...to let feelings run the show...not good either...either one alone is unreliable, Mr. Spock was WRONG....but when they are bonded to each other, LOOK OUT WORLD HERE I COME nothing can stand in the way of clear thinking coupled with honest feeling...

There are quite a few pop lyrics about killing the bad woman...Delia's Gone by Johnny Cash, if I hadn't shot ol' Delia I'd a had her for my wife...she was mean, lyrics on request. Willie Nelson, I could never let you say good bye, on Teatro, he strangles that one for her cruelty, with his bare hands. (Funny how NOW isn't up in arms about this stuff...maybe they can interpret metaphors better than I thought....) METALLICA, Unforgiven II, he strangles his bedmate and now he can see the sun...

Bad women, bad feelings, cruelty, despair...kill 'em...

Good women...feelings that keep you in touch with Reality...yours and that of other people...that make it possible for us to join forces...ADORE THEM...

John Lennon lyric..."I used to be mean to my woman I beat her and kept her apart from the things that she loved, man I was mean but I'm changing my scene and I'm doing the best that I can....got to admit it's getting better, it's getting better all the time..."

I'm pretty sure Mr. Lennon never beat any woman...except maybe his own propensity to despair.
 

Bandit

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i guess you could beat on your wife. just be prepared to have an iron skillet bounced off your head or be run over by the family car.:)
 
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The rules for the above ayaah in Surah An Nisa are:

The husband has to first show his discontent verbally, then by refusing to share the bed, and if she STILL doesn't get it after all that, he can take a piece of light bark (miswaak) that is toothbrush sized (used to clean the teeth actually) and tap her on the HAND. That's it, anything more than that is HARAM.


SHE - on the other hand- has NO LIMITS on how much she can hit her husband. No one looks at that though...

Islam is a religion of reality, it recognizes human weaknesses (women can talk too much and be naive, etc) and doesn't ignore them. It places stricter laws on the men than it does on the women. In fact, the woman is basically a princess in her home and the man has to share everything he owns with her while she has to share nothing of her own ( money wise at least) of which she earns. She doesn't have to work if she doesn't want to yet the husband is required to anyways. When she leaves the house- she demands the respect of outsiders and guards her honor and her husband's honor by covering herself up.
 

Friend

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Hi to all

The Qur'an is very clear on this issue. Almighty Allah says: "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more strength than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient and guard in the husband's absence what Allah would have them to guard. As to those women on whose part you fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance); for Allah is most High and Great (above you all). If you fear a breach between them twain, appoint (two) arbiters, one from his family and the other from hers. If they wish for peace, Allah will cause their reconciliation; for Allah has full knowledge and is acquainted with all things." (An-Nisa': 34-35)

It is important to read the section fully. One should not take part of the verse and use it to justify one's own misconduct. This verse neither permits violence nor condones it. It guides us to ways to handle delicate family situation with care and wisdom. The word "beating" is used in the verse, but it does not mean "physical abuse". The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) explained it "dharban ghayra mubarrih" which means "a light tap that leaves no mark". He further said that face must be avoided. Some other scholars are of the view that it is no more than a light touch by siwak, or toothbrush.

Generally, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) used to discourage his followers from taking even this measure. He never hit any female, and he used to say that the best of men are those who do not hit their wives. In one hadith he expressed his extreme repulsion from this behavior and said, "How does anyone of you beat his wife as he beats the stallion camel and then embrace (sleep with) her?” (Al-Bukhari, English Translation, vol. 8, Hadith 68, pp. 42-43)

It is also important to note that even this "light strike" mentioned in the verse is not to be used to correct some minor problem, but it is permissible to resort to only in a situation of some serious moral misconduct when admonishing the wife fails, and avoiding from sleeping with her would not help. If this disciplinary action can correct a situation and save the marriage, then one should use it."

Dr. Jamal Badawi, professor at Saint Mary's University in Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada, and a cross-appointed faculty member in the Departments of Religious Studies and Management, adds:

"If the problem relates to the wife's behavior, the husband may exhort her and appeal for reason. In most cases, this measure is likely to be sufficient. In cases where the problem persists, the husband may express his displeasure in another peaceful manner, by sleeping in a separate bed from hers. There are cases, however, in which a wife persists in bad habits and showing contempt of her husband and disregard for her marital obligations. Instead of divorce, the husband may resort to another measure that may save the marriage, at least in some cases. Such a measure is more accurately described as a gentle tap on the body, but never on the face, making it more of a symbolic measure than a punitive one.
 

Curios Mike

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I thought their was one in the bible about beating your wife, but cant find it, but it does clearly state beating your child:

Prov 23:12-19
12 Apply your heart to instruction,
And your ears to words of knowledge.
13 Do not withhold correction from a child,
For if you beat him with a rod, he will not die.
14 You shall beat him with a rod,
And deliver his soul from hell.
15 My son, if your heart is wise,
My heart will rejoice--indeed, I myself;
16 Yes, my inmost being will rejoice
When your lips speak right things.
17 Do not let your heart envy sinners,
But be zealous for the fear of the LORD all the day;
18 For surely there is a hereafter,
And your hope will not be cut off.
19 Hear, my son, and be wise;
And guide your heart in the way.
NKJV
Prov 29:15-18
15 The rod and rebuke give wisdom,
But a child left to himself brings shame to his mother.
16 When the wicked are multiplied, transgression increases;
But the righteous will see their fall.
17 Correct your son, and he will give you rest;
Yes, he will give delight to your soul.
18 Where there is no revelation, the people cast off restraint;
But happy is he who keeps the law.
NKJV
Prov 13:24
24 He who spares his rod hates his son,
But he who loves him disciplines him promptly.
NKJV

Maybe I was wrong but I cant find it in the bible where it sasy take a rod to a woman. But anyways it does state to take a rod to your children, and gives good reason.... but this is another topic.
 

Awaiting_the_fifth

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menj said:
A proper exegesis of the Qur'anic verse cited above can be seen here:

One must always see the verse in its context and not take things too literally.

- MENJ

Well that's almost exactly the same wording as above.

The problem Im having here (which ties in with what Curios Mike said):

Curios Mike said:
I thought their was one in the bible about beating your wife

is that I was under the impression that the Qur'an is the literal word of God (which the bible is not), therefore who are you, or anyone else, to interpret it as you see fit? Surely to say that beat means to symbolically tap is coming from the same mentality that interpret's Jihad as suicide bomb. Please understand that I am not suggesting that these two actions are linked, I am simply pointing out that if you leave the literal word of God open for interpretation, you can make it say whatever you want.

Also, I would argue that if "beat" in this context, means a light, symbolic tap then it breaks the sequential logic of the verse.

First edify,
then abstain,
then tap lightly?

Why would you give such a build up to a light, symbolic tap? If the beating is so innocent and harmless then why not go straight into it, why all the warnings?

Having said all this, I do respect that Islamic people who read this recognise that it is wrong to physically beat a woman and I am glad that alternate readings are being saught.
 
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Awaiting_the_fifth said:
Also, I would argue that if "beat" in this context, means a light, symbolic tap then it breaks the sequential logic of the verse.

First edify,
then abstain,
then tap lightly?

Why would you give such a build up to a light, symbolic tap? If the beating is so innocent and harmless then why not go straight into it, why all the warnings?

This shows the condition of the times we are in, when we say that a light tap is just that, a light tap...
 

PluckyAli

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Is it cool to beat your wife?
Certainly,It's kewl to beat your wife.When i will get married,i have a plan to beat my wife daily only because the quran clearly says so to beat your wife and fortunately i am a muslim,It will be fun,ahahah.
 

Curios Mike

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Who am I... I'm nothin. I am born of love, but hated by this world. I'm a son of Divine, yet a hopless begger in my own wisdom. I'm a fool before the king, but in his wisdom I confound the wise. For He is greater than all! His words formed man. His love redeems man. In his laws is perfect love, to those who listen and obey! In his words they speak forever. Their is non other than him! For their is no other name under heaven or in the earth by which man can be saved! His name is Jesus!!!!
 

capthowdy

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Awaiting_the_fifth said:
I took this from the "Women" thread in the islamic section. Since tensions were running high there I thought it best to bring my opinions on this matter to the comparative board.

I understand this is a direct translation from the Quran

Al-Nisa 4:34


I was shocked when I saw this. I was raised in a society where violence of any kind against women is totally unnaceptable.

I know that Islam is probably not the only faith who's holy book condones such things, but it is a problem that the Quran is considered to be the unarguable word of God. (i.e such statements in the Bible or Torah could be disregarded as ancient cultural ideosyncracies.

My opinion is that there can be no excuse whatsoever for a man to hit his wife. I am eager to hear other opinions.


Wow, I've read a little of the quran but I was aware of this part. Well in my personal opinion there is no excuse for the abuse of a woman, I was raised in an abusive home. i have also seen abuse in other homes, there is no excuse. Yeah some people say ..."well my wife punched me in the face"....I say suck it up and be man and get over it. My opinion is that abuse is wrong in any circumstance, and if you feel the need to hit the woman you're with......think about what is the cause of her acting in way that makes you want to resort to violence and you'll often find it's your fault. So no it isn't cool to beat your wife.
 

Quahom1

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The "Rule of (the) Thumb" went out of fashion a hundred or so years ago in the US.

One could not beat their wife with a switch of Hickory with the diameter wider then one's thumb, nor longer that three feet.

But it was there as a law. And it was a law that went back centuries, and back to Europe.

Kind of hard to "thumb one's nose" at the practices of another, when one used to recently do the same thing.

I have to smile when young men and women get into this discussion (the younger ones than me). They don't realize that less than 85 years ago, women couldn't even vote in the US, let alone hold property (as a rule, but there were exceptions).

Up until the late 70s, early 80s, a man could take his belt and beat the living daylight out of his kids if he felt they were out of line, and no one would bat an eye over it.

If the father wasn't around to catch a kid doing wrong, and a neighbor did, that neighbor was expected to "discipline" the neighbor kid on behalf of the kid's parents.

I know, I got my butt whooped by many a neighborhood fathers and mothers in my youth, then got it again when my folks found out. (I think they compared notes to whooping techniques that worked best).

If the Qu'ran is followed to the letter of the law, then even though it may sound degrading to western ears and eyes, the fact is it has been practiced in this "genteel" fashion for about a thousand years longer than the western ways were conducted, prior to this century or so of "enlightenment".

I wouldn't jump so quick to judge others, for what we haven't mastered, yet profess to be.

On the other hand, it is not cool to beat anyone. Nor is it cool to mess with their minds. Beating anyone is not "MASCULINE", or macho, or manly. In fact BEATING someone is a childish, immature action, to get one's own way, post haste. Those that resort to beating others are an insecure lot.

And when I say beating, I mean just that (physically damaging body and/or mind and/or spirit of another, in order to have own demands/desires/wishes complied with). That is also called Abuse. For that, there is no excuse.

v/r

Q
 

Paladin

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Hi Q, Your'e looking well, haven't you lost some weight?:D

Thank you for your message it is right on time. Hopefully the human race is beginning to move past the point where violence is an option in any situation.
It may seem like a dream, but I believe it to be the brass ring we should all be reaching for. When I left the infantry, and put my rifle back in the arms room for the last time, I vowed never to raise my hand in anger to another human being again. I still believe in defending myself, or loved ones, but not in anger.
As a people we are taught many wonderful things and our technology is incredible yet we still have little idea what to do about our emotions.

Peace

Mark
 

Quahom1

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Paladin said:
Hi Q, Your'e looking well, haven't you lost some weight?:D

Thank you for your message it is right on time. Hopefully the human race is beginning to move past the point where violence is an option in any situation.
It may seem like a dream, but I believe it to be the brass ring we should all be reaching for. When I left the infantry, and put my rifle back in the arms room for the last time, I vowed never to raise my hand in anger to another human being again. I still believe in defending myself, or loved ones, but not in anger.
As a people we are taught many wonderful things and our technology is incredible yet we still have little idea what to do about our emotions.

Peace

Mark

Yes, nice to dump the baggage one carries (especially when realizing that the baggage is old and useless). :cool:

Paladin, I do not equate national defense issues, with domestic battery/abuse/mind games, however. And as such, I don't think we should go into that here.

War should not be conducted within the home and hearth. That should be safety and "sanctuary", for families. Battle will be conducted upon the "field" away from "home".

There is a distinction.

v/r

Q
 

Paladin

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Actually Q I wasn't speaking of national defense at all, Just relating a time period when I decided to change my mind about how I was living and what my approach to others should be. I think that if we as a people had a greater degree of emotional intelligence domestic violence would diminish, which is why I made reference to it.

BTW so very good to see you!

Mark
 
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