Concepts about spirits?

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by nomanshake, Jul 9, 2005.

  1. nomanshake

    nomanshake Well-Known Member

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    Since childhood all of us had almost one concept about spirits, that is our soul would go out of our body after we die and we might be in this world romaing around as spirits ,and we'd be able to see what's happening in this world but we wont be able to touch or anything. However thoughts began to change as we grew up..Here are some of the different thoughts that a person might have, id like to know yours and the reason for believing in such thought so I can make my concept clear too!

    1- Yes spirits exist after we die, and we are free to hang around anywhere.

    2- Yes, spirits exist after we die, but we are not allowed to go anywhere else other then the sky or God's asylum.

    3- Yes, spirits exist but we are not able to see or hear anything, we are in a deadly form, and we'd rise again on the day of judgement, to go to hell or heaven.

    4- No, spirits dont exist, we are like animals, we die and that's it.

    5- We as spirits exist at God's asylum and we are allowed to go down in the spirited form on special request from god or angels.
     
  2. tobycar

    tobycar New Member

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    i kindof belive mostly in 1 that spirits are souls, hanging around in the final stage of life on this planet.. watching/helping people or places which they care about. Spirits dont hang around for no reason. if you feel one talk to them nicey offering them help with they want, once they dont what they need to do, they can often leave this place and join the que for bodys
     
  3. Bellator

    Bellator Catholic. Formerly StarshipEnterprise

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    You forgot about option 6: none of the above


    I think that if there is an afterlife, we cannot possibly comprehend it right now. Option 4 does seem somewhat likely to me.
     
  4. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    I believe number 2. But I imagine from time to time we may pull a number 5.

    However, I think (from my upbringing), that once in awhile a spirit loses their way and ends up in number 1 status.

    I also believe that some spirit remain in the grave until the day of judgement (number 3).

    I do not accept number 4, at all. Not for man or beast, for the simple reason that energy can not be created nor destroyed, only changed.

    v/r

    Q
     
  5. Awaiting_the_fifth

    Awaiting_the_fifth Where is my mind?

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    Im afraid none of these are close to my belief.

    I believe that at the point of death the concious mind which is essentially YOU dies and dissappears forever. However, the subtlest part of the mind, the tiny core of being lives on and becomes the Bardo Spirit. In this form one has a chance to recognise the pure lands and find liberation but more commonly the bardo is pulled back into samsara and begins life anew in whatever realm it has chosen, from Hell to Heaven or anywhere in between.
     
  6. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    From a Speculative Christian Neoplatonist perspective -

    First one has to determine the difference between soul and spirit, and level, which is the nature of the activity. In the Hebraic tradition there is a hierarchy of the soul, but aside from that issue, the question addresses the soul, which is the whole person, rather than the individual spirit which is a component part, a product of the life of the soul.

    Q1- Yes spirits exist after we die, and we are free to hang around anywhere.
    A1 - The soul can continue after the death of the physical body, although this is not guaranteed, nor even unconditionally permanent ...

    Q2- Yes, spirits exist after we die, but we are not allowed to go anywhere else other then the sky or God's asylum.
    A2 - Yes (provisionally - see above) and yes we are not allowed ... - if the soul can exist in a post mortem state there has to be a prior condition of existence - so in this sense its 'options' are determined: a paradisical state, a limbic state or an infernal state.

    Q3 - Yes, spirits exist but we are not able to see or hear anything, we are in a deadly form, and we'd rise again on the day of judgement, to go to hell or heaven.
    A3 - Such is the condition of the animic soul, which passes to Sheol, the Hebrew netherworld. In the Hebrew tradition the soul is 'nefesh' which might be called 'life', it is the 'psyche' of the Greeks and 'anima' of the Latin.

    It should be understood that the Greek definition of 'psyche' does not match the Hebraic understanding of 'nefesh'. The Greek view is dualistic, the Hebrew is wholistic.

    In death nefesh plays no further part in life. Such is a 'dead soul' - it is not 'active' and has no 'experience' in the sense of 'living' or 'suffering' in a netherworld - it simply ceases to act altogether, so in this sense is 'dead to the world'.

    Psychic entities of an advanced degree can see and hear, and interact with the world, but they are a product primarily of the psyche and as such might be likened to a residue.

    Classic examples are a room that 'reminds' you of someone, you 'sense his memories or presence' - a presence but no activity - a shade. Further along we have apparitions, which might be likened to an activity without a presence, and then a ghost, with which one can appear to interact. Whether any interchange has actually taken place needs careful investigation ... but this is all speculation ... the realm of spiritualism.

    Short answer is avoid everything at this level - its usually serving its own benefit, not (and in some cases most definitely not) yours.

    Q4 - No, spirits dont exist, we are like animals, we die and that's it.
    A4 - Everything that lives (ie has a self-defining activity) has a soul. The bible refers to man as 'a living soul' (chay nefesh) and animals as a 'living creature' (chay nefesh) - the same word applies.

    Q5 - We as spirits exist at God's asylum and we are allowed to go down in the spirited form on special request from god or angels.
    A5 - The soul is a nexus of spirit and matter. The soul is not an immaterial autonomous entity that occupies a disposable body (and by which the whole of creation would be equally disposable), the body is the material form of the soul.

    Addendum:
    Spirits, or rather spiritual beings, do exist and do watch, but they don't interfere of their own volition (which is at their level a sin) they don't act because they don't know the End the Divine holds in view, so to act would be 'wilful' and thus a sin. Hence the saying, 'fools rush in where angels fear to tread'.

    Angelic beings are of a higher order and do possess a degree of self-determination (and hence they too can fall). They are servants and primarily messengers, and would require a degree of self-awareness and determination to accomplish their mission - they would not be able to talk, for example, but rather simply recite like a record. Not much use if you dropped the saucepan in surprise and missed what was said. Or more accurately, in Scripture men talk to angels which mean they must possess a degree of cognisance to engage in dialogue.

    Thomas
     
  7. truthseeker

    truthseeker Well-Known Member

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    Beautiful.
     
  8. Mathghamhain

    Mathghamhain Member

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    In Animism believes everything has a Spirit & most cultures had a Land of the Dead. Hell comes from the Greek's Land of the Dead but this is not th evil place as in the Christian view, it was just the place your spirit went to when you died & you would be doing the same thing you did when you were alive. As for a lot of us today & the slaves in Rome being changed to Christian that would be evil place to go.

    As in the Celtic world, Samhain or Halloween was a time to honor & commuicate with family that had died. The evil & fear was placed on anything from the Pagan believes from the church because they were trying to stop the people from practicing their Pagan Ceremonies.

    Coming from an age that everything uses electricity & electricity is an natural phenomenon. Modern science can not prove what electricity is, all law of electricity is on the use of it. Kind of scary if you think about it. They have put tribal medicine men on brain wave monitoring machines & when they started to do healing or other stuff they went into a Delta State. If modern man put you in a Delta state you would be in a coma like state, only able to respond to comands. Modern man does not have all the answer & that is why we are here.(on this forum)

    I guess you will have to find what works for you!:) I was brought up Roman Catholic:confused:, I do not know if it is the modern way of thinking or the RC up bringing but I find I have some doubt on this subject. I think it is also what is your belief on what is a Spirit before you try to find out what happenes to it when you die. I think they had some threads on that subject before and it might be a good thing to check them out.

    Mathghamhain
     
  9. earl

    earl ?

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    Hey Thomas- again the Hebraic theory of souls is quite interesting. I guess I tend to think of that line from Shakespear-something about "stranger things in heaven and on Earth than dreamt of in your philosophy Horatio". Obviously, don't know for sure what any of it means but even within my own family there have been interesting experiences. As my first wife was dying over a perod of a few months at age 28 of an inherited disease (she was raised traditional Catholic with no New Age predilections nor even read much re these kinds of things), she was struggling with the emotional pain of knowing she was likely terminal. Had 1 near-death experience early on while in hospital that involved staff reviving her. She informed me later that while in that state her long-deceased mother "visited." When she first saw her she assumed it was time tocheck out, but was informed it was not yet quite her time, but they would be together soon. Proceeded to chat with her re her impressions of the family's changes since her "departure." My wife went on to have times when she would drift in & out of consciouness & when coming to would spontaneously recount previous lives which thematically explained the "lessons" she was learning from her physical suffering in this life. The night before she died while I was laying in another room attempting to sleep I finally said "thy will be done"-having fought against letting her go for months & she died the next am.

    Some of you may have heard that presumably young children & animals can sense "spirits." When our grandson was about 2 & barely verbal-slow at expressing self in words thugh always seemed to have an uncanny ability to understand what an adult was trying to communicate, my current wife & I were driving down a street with him in the car. We'd never used the word "ghost" around him before. She & I started talking about ghosts & he became animatedly interested claiming he saw ghosts. We drove down several blocks of houses before he suddenly pointed to one saying there was a ghost in that 1. We'd never discussed nor showed him that building before. My wife had heard from tenants there that a ghost reputedly "lived" there. Interesting world we live in isn't it? Take care, Earl
     

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