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How have these wars benefited us? Since them, we have had Madrid and London bombings also do you think New York is immune? Have we created a greater threat?
haven't stood at the base of the twin towers, wondering where your loved one lies. That is frustration my friend. That is rage in the making...
Quahom1 said:Oh it can stop, in a new york second. Let those that started it stop...'cause we aren't going to, until we see change. And if we don't see change...we won't stop, Postmaster.
Cap, rage is what keeps a nation alive, during war. We are at war, and the enemy is unknown. Doing more damage than good is not the issue, because we don't care...(you might).
Morons lash out blindly, and california has it's share. Cold rage is a different matter alltogether. Every move is calculated for maximum effect. There is an end in sight, and that end WILL be reached. And when finished, there will be only one standing.
No, you two have ideals, which are great. I've seen reality, which is not so great.
And before you two point out that I will not suffer personally from this 'war', tell that to my sons pounding the sand over there. They are all I've got, and they understand...that is why they are there.
By the way, I go over there in a short time...and I go gladly, so you two don't have to.
And similarly, we should surely condemn leaders of the international community for allowing millions of Palestinians to be deprived of their land, freedom & rights for more than half-a-century;
aquaris said:Excuse me.....But from Day one since 9/11.....
why do i have problem believing that there is any such thing called " Al-qaeeda "
aquaris said:No bananbrain....
I admit, there is very little introspection, self-criticism and self-scrutiny going on in muslim world, and most of them are in a state of denial,....trying to find justifications, and causes , rather then eliminating the discrepencies , and finding the raison d'etre
For muslim Mindset to come out of this deep centuries Old slumber , re examination and new angles of prespective are neccessary, no matter how bitter, shocking and
seemingly repulive they may be...
..But ...... I still have problem accepting 9/11......... I still can not figure out....how two small planes even filled with all the explosives can demolish two buildings , in a free fall fashion, ..... ... especially when the building were specifically constructed to withhold .... a collision impact of a very powerfull flying object like a 747......!!!
....... I have watched the horror movie ( 9/11 crash movie ) again and again........all it shows is a controlled demolition excercise......... I have read the official version.....and have found too many questions unanswered..... infact for every answered question..... more questions needed to answered.......and they have not been answered.....
..... I knew of experiments done elsewhere to simulate the 9/11 , and none of them have achieved similiar or even closer to similiar results........and these ARE perplexing question....
On OBL..... the only source of Info on this guy ....... ends up at CIA's and Pentagon's door........ or maybe Saudi Royal Family....
What ever is happening is reality...... people are loosing lives,.........and that is the most unfortunate part...... But still..... accepting the official versions.........!!!!
Naah......... there are too many questions Unanswered....... and I won't accept the face value........and slowly but surely ...... am getting convinced ..that we are Not told the truth.... and there are too many skeletons, .....
We are getting only the half-truths, distorted views on Reality.....and a Lot and Lot of emplty spaces in the explanations....
Bananabrain I have grown to respect you alot from your posts. I agree with much of what you say but i would like to question when you said that peace marches can not bring peace unless there in a Gandhi in the offing. This point i disagree with. You cannot put all of the success of the Indian independance movement that Gandhi was a part of all on to Gandhi.bananabrain said:all i can say is the whole thing is bloody complicated. "the west" is not wrong. peace marches can only stop things, not bring peace - unless there's a gandhi in the offing. and i just don't see a gandhi coming out of the islamic world at the moment. only a war (even one ten years late and after ten years of bloody sanctions and further saddamite oppression and murder) could have removed the regime in iraq. ok, it's been really screwed up in various ways, but i still believe history will judge the decision to be "better late and cockeyed than never". and who else but the USA could have done it half as well? you don't see the french and the russians sticking their necks out, do you? not even to save the muslims in bosnia and kosovo. that was the US and the UK, wasn't it? a fat lot of good the UN and the "peacekeepers" did at srebrenica.
er.. i'm not. gandhi provided *leadership* and a vision that his supporters could get behind and support. arafat did as well (up to a point) but it was a fantasy which has wasted the time, blood and life of two generations and is still not yet superseded. it is leadership, vision, a willingness to face down one's external AND internal critics and even prepared to die for what is right (as opposed to what looks good on TV) that the palestinians have lacked. contrast arafat's shilly-shallying, double-talk and failure to deliver with sharon's willingness to risk assassination and the tragedy of yitzhak rabin. when it comes down to it, gesture politics doesn't deliver. this is why arafat - and netanyahu - failed. abu mazen will go the same way if he's not careful.i would like to question when you said that peace marches can not bring peace unless there in a Gandhi in the offing. This point i disagree with. You cannot put all of the success of the Indian independance movement that Gandhi was a part of all on to Gandhi.
blimey kaspar, if one isn't needed now, when wouldI believe that Peaceful protest is a possible route to peace in Israel and that a Leader will appear when a Leader is needed.
certainly the israeli right appears to be treating the wall as a "land-grab", which is causing unnecessary friction, suffering and creating problems that will only have to be resolved - probably in much the same way that the "facts on the ground" in gaza have been resolved. they're fools to try it. on the other hand, wherever there's a wall, it has demonstrably prevented terrorist infiltrations - and that's hard to argue with. what i object to is the route, not the idea of a wall. don't forget, walls can be knocked down. there's nothing to say the route of the wall can't be changed now or in future - and, indeed, many petitions to the israeli supreme court have been lodged and successfully prosecuted.It seems as where the wall in the west bank goes it closes off a huge proportion of palestine within its walls like little pockets of palestine surrounded by Israel separating it from the main bulk of Palestine.
as i said, the pmc has a clear agenda and bias of its own. if you want to be properly informed, you need to be prepared to read a variety of sources and make your own mind up. personally, i recommend a combination of the UK papers (mine's the times, although i'm not averse to reading the guardian at times), the bbc (who are blamed by both sides for being biased in favour of the others, so they must be more or less in the middle, dispite an undeniable preference for the soft-left and media "goodies vs baddies") and, in particular, the left-wing israeli paper haaretz (http://www.haaretzdaily.com) which is published daily in english as well as hebrew and is not afraid to publish viewpoints from both left and right as well as having at least one arab correspondent and regular contributors. my palestinian friends all seem very keen on al-jazeera, although i find it a bit too close to the extremists. i'd recommend the london-based pan-arab daily asharq al-awsat (http://aawsat.com/english/default.asp) also published in english, which is, i'd say, fairly well respected and also seems to avoid israel-bashing for the sake of it, unlike al-jazeera, al-arabiya and so on.I don't want to give biased information but correct me if this map is false.
capthowdy said:I still don't agree with the rage part, anger yes but not rage. Don't get me wrong I'm not some tree hugging hippie that closes my eyes and hopes it all goes away, I got no problem with the troops their just doing what their told and what they believe is right, nothing wrong with that......it's the ones pulling the strings that I got a problem with. Here's an interesting fact to show just how wrapped up the american public is in this war, people say the troops are our heros and the put american flags on their suv's and buy yellow ribbons at gas stations, yet with everyone showing their undying support then why is the recruitment rate for the armed forces so low? We got the reserves and the national guard over there serving multiple tours. People ask me why don't I join, I say to those same people why don't you join, you really think buying a cheap ass magnet ribbon is doing your part. The only way you'll catch me over there is if they reinstate the draft. So like I said don't get me wrong Q I'm trying not to demonize anyone I'm just looking for clarification.
I like the passion you show but i can't help but dissagree with your position.17th Angel said:I am an ex-Soldier, Only a few have truly what it takes to face a war.... Many may believe what a soldier is doing is right, yet they themselves cannot gather inside them what it truly takes to go to war. They doesn't make them bad or cowards... They are just plain and simply not soliders. Majority of soldiers at times worry when war is the path they lead down. I am not sure for American soldiers, but here you take an oath and you swear by it, and you do what you have to do, because your a soldier and you are the best and you are the protector of innocence and you are the sheild for the people that cannot fight for themselves. You do not think about yourself, you get your head down and get stuck in, and that is why even now I admire soldiers with respect. If it came to a point again where I was needed I would not think twice, I would take my uniform and rifle and get ready to lay my life on the line for my Queen, for my country and its countrymen. That is all....
Kaspar said:Bananabrain thank you for your time. I will read the Israeli paper you recomended. Add it as a favourite.
I like the passion you show but i can't help but dissagree with your position.
I think there is nothing honourable about getting your head down and taking orders. I think if you bow down to this level you are no longer a human but a machine. What is the purpose of your mind or heart if you are just going to use it to Kill and hate?
What is so amazing about your Queen? what has she done good for her country? She is just one rich aristocrat who sits on her wealth.
Violence is never a solution. It doesn't find peace or build bridges. It doesn't build intellect or allow creativity.
All it does is give people mental health disorders, make them scared, frightened, and freeze their heart.
You say that you will pick up your rifle. Why? Would you shoot your brother down? What gives you the right to take peoples lives? Playing life and death like you were God. What reason is there ever to take someone elses life?
I believe by the act of killing someone you are killing your self. You are splitting your soul up. There is nothing alright about murder just because they are wearing a different uniform.
I know you (17th angel) will almost definately dissagree with my objection to War and violence but I find it hard not to voice my opinion.
May you live in Peace
Interesting point.Bandit said:i stand behind soldiers & support troops & i give them a lot of respect for defending there country. i dont stand behind 'starting' war but do believe in self defense.
soldiers do what they are commanded to do.
blame the warlords & politicians Kaspar, not the soldier.
if it was not for the soldier, YOU would be on the front lines whether you like it or not.