Fish intelligence revised

Discussion in 'Science and the Universe' started by iBrian, Sep 5, 2003.

  1. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Admin

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2003
    Messages:
    6,532
    Likes Received:
    10
    Well, it seems that some research has come out fighting for the intelligence of fish. :)

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_yorkshire/3189941.stm

    Scientists highlight fish 'intelligence'

    Fish are socially intelligent creatures who do not deserve their reputation as the dim-wits of the animal kingdom, according to a group of leading scientists.

    Rather than simply being instinct-driven, the group says fish are cunning, manipulative and even cultured.

    The three experts from the universities of Edinburgh, St Andrews and Leeds said there had been huge changes in science's understanding of the psychological and mental abilities of fish in the last few years.

    Writing in the journal Fish and Fisheries, biologists Calum Brown, Keven Laland and Jens Krause said fish were now seen as highly intelligent creatures.

    They said: "Gone (or at least obsolete) is the image of fish as drudging and dim-witted pea-brains, driven largely by 'instinct',' with what little behavioural flexibility they possess being severely hampered by an infamous 'three-second memory'.

    Behaviour patterns

    "Now, fish are regarded as steeped in social intelligence, pursuing Machiavellian strategies of manipulation, punishment and reconciliation, exhibiting stable cultural traditions, and co-operating to inspect predators and catch food."

    Recent research had shown that fish recognised individual "shoal mates", social prestige and even tracked relationships.

    Scientists had also observed them using tools, building complex nests and exhibiting long-term memories.

    The scientists added: "Although it may seem extraordinary to those comfortably used to pre-judging animal intelligence on the basis of brain volume, in some cognitive domains, fishes can even be favourably compared to non-human primates."

    They said fish were the most ancient of the major vertebrate groups, giving them "ample time" to evolve complex, adaptable and diverse behaviour patterns that rivalled those of other vertebrates.

    "These developments warrant a re-appraisal of the behavioural flexibility of fishes, and highlight the need for a deeper understanding of the learning processes that underpin the newly recognised behavioural and social sophistication of this taxon," said the scientists.
     
  2. lexyxander

    lexyxander New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2003
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    0
    lol yes indeed.

    I never quite understood why they say a gold fish only has a memory span of three seconds ?

    I mean looking on the lighter side it wouldnt be much fun, can you imagine harry the fish speaking to hammy the goldfish. So what did you get up to at the weekened hammy, yeah harry I went to the football what about your self harry yeah went shoping with the wife.

    lol then 3 secondes later " So what did you get up to at the weekened hammy " and this may go on forever.

    Yeah its a bit of a extreme I know but makes you think, after all they say we were once fish ourselfs ;)

    Greetings Respect To The Fish.
     
  3. mikie8

    mikie8 New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2003
    Messages:
    61
    Likes Received:
    0
    Fish , Birds and Animals have always been intelligent and anyone who spends time with any speices will get to understand that . maybe not cattle as these species have been domesticated for many a year . But time and time again each species becomes "intelligent" only when a scientific study hs spent many years sudy a individual species .The study of the animal kingdom has been practiced intensely since the victorian age, but with modern computers the understanding process is getting shortter and so our understanding has increased quicker in a reatively short time .The thing is man tends to think of himself as the king of creation when really we are part of the animal kingdom itself .To believe in this hierarchy system where man is at the top and animals line up beneath us in an orderly line in accordance to the value or importance we give them ,remineds me of the mindset that enslaved humans .
    whatever our beliefs or relative perspective on life we must respect individualness and take things for granted , just because we eat it dose not mean it its life is less important than ours .
    I just think that as a whole mankind takes the enviroment for granted and has evolved a perception of the enviroment that suits our needs and gratification all because we assume to be better .
     
  4. Susma Rio Sep

    Susma Rio Sep New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2003
    Messages:
    828
    Likes Received:
    1
    intelligence and intelligence

    The way I see it, all life forms are intelligent, for managing to survive as a species to the present. The quicker they can adopt to survive as a species the more intellignet they are.

    But then we are talking about intelligence in terms of survival as a species. In that respect I would say that the fact of survival as a species is an index of intelligence.

    Jews as an ethnic group manages to survive to the present, notwithstanding the pogroms against them. A monument to their intelligence.

    Do the Romans, Greeks, Persians, etc., still remain with us as a distinct ethnic group like the Jews? What does the answer say about their intelligence.

    Back to fish intelligence, if you have fish waste matters in the garbage, maggots will appear faster with them present than with other waste matters. Does that prove the intelligence of insects using fish waste matters as an environment for their reproductive hatching process?

    All things wise and beautiful, all creatures great and small.
    The Lord God made them all.

    Did I get that right?

    Now to my own insight. The intelligence that we should be talking about is the intelligence to fabricate sophisticated artifacts to save on time, trouble, and labor in the attainment of any purpose the animal form intends for its own satisfaction.

    In that respect, I observe that man is still so far the most intelligent. But his heart is not in the right place; so that notwithstanding his intelligence, he will destroy himself thereby.

    So, we should all use our intelligence to achieve the abolition of war and violence. This attainment will be the apex of our intelligence, otherwise we are still dumb and doomed.

    Susma Rio Sep
     
  5. seattlegal

    seattlegal Mercur├Žn Buddhist

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2005
    Messages:
    6,635
    Likes Received:
    110
    Looky what just got dredged up from the briny depths of the forum archives! :D
    [​IMG] ;)
     
  6. Tao_Equus

    Tao_Equus Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2005
    Messages:
    5,826
    Likes Received:
    0
    It is wonderful that the more we look the more we see. IMO ,One day we will all accept that the brain is more of a reciever for linkage to the super-organism Gaia, that intelligence is a much greater concept than that attributed to individual organisms.

    TE
     
  7. Snoopy

    Snoopy Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    5,291
    Likes Received:
    22
    If I could be insulted, I'd be insulted!
     
  8. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    22,039
    Likes Received:
    2,060
    What was that movie with the clown fish that my kids liked so?

    We learned alot about that fish during the frenzy of that movie.

    The symbiotic relationship between them and the anenome, they keep the anenome clean and they are immune to the sting..
    they sucker other fish in who aren't and get paralyzed and eaten...
    they live in small family groups that are matriarchal and each fish down the 'pecking' order is 83% of the size of the fish upline and opposite sex.
    Should anyones ego overcome them and start to grow to overpower the one above the entire colony boots them out of the safety of the anenome and they are on their own in the sea..
    Should the leader or any of the middle ones die all the ones below grow in size proportionately to even the chain...and change sexes to keep the order girl, boy, girl, boy...

    Twas a great discussion with my kids, but sure didn't make me think that fish were dumb...quite the opposite, quite the social structure and rules...
     
  9. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2003
    Messages:
    11,741
    Likes Received:
    2,125
    "Finding Nemo"

    My daughter knows the script verbatim.

    We had a goldfish, lived in a tank, in the kitchen. When you got up in the morning and wandered by to put the kettle on, Jim (don't ask me why the name) would splash you with water as a reminder that he's waiting to be fed. At least, i hope he was splashing, and not spitting.

    We inherited Jim from neighbours who moved, and I rehoused him in a bigger tank. So he grew again. So I rehoused him in a bigger one. And he grew again. At which point I stopped playing. Any bigger and it'd be like getting a bucket of water on your back in the morning ...

    A friend of mine used to wear oversize boxer shorts in the hope that the goldfish principle might apply, but the last I heard, he said the experiment was a dismal failure ...

    Thomas
     
  10. InLove

    InLove at peace

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2005
    Messages:
    3,267
    Likes Received:
    4
  11. Snoopy

    Snoopy Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    5,291
    Likes Received:
    22
    I think I'd like to be a Zebra Lionfish.
     
  12. InLove

    InLove at peace

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2005
    Messages:
    3,267
    Likes Received:
    4
    Yes, I think you look wonderful in stripes. But are they horizontal or vertical? I can't tell...:D
     
  13. Snoopy

    Snoopy Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    5,291
    Likes Received:
    22
    well it depends on which way we're looking at each other!
     
  14. InLove

    InLove at peace

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2005
    Messages:
    3,267
    Likes Received:
    4
    Oh my, aren't they beautiful!
     
  15. Snoopy

    Snoopy Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    5,291
    Likes Received:
    22
    *blush*

    I'm the one on the left...:)

    s.
     
  16. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2003
    Messages:
    9,906
    Likes Received:
    5
    Fatal beauty, I should think... :eek:

    Since fish are so intelligent, It's a good thing I use barbless hooks to catch em'... :rolleyes: :eek:
     
  17. flowperson

    flowperson Oannes

    Joined:
    May 8, 2006
    Messages:
    2,612
    Likes Received:
    2
    Large ocean sunfish are my faves ! But that's no surprise here...huh ?

    Just got back from cruising the seven seas. Good to be on dry land again...even though breathing is a little more difficult here than when the water is flowing past my gills

    flow....:cool:
     
  18. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2003
    Messages:
    9,906
    Likes Received:
    5
    At sea...what a relief that is. Because when you throw off line 1, you leave your worries behind at the pier. I spent 10 years at sea...god, I miss that (I envy you your trip). ;)

    Welcome back!

    v/r

    Joshua

    edit: Oh! Oh! Name the seven seas...please? I just want to hear them again... (lol) ;)
     
  19. flowperson

    flowperson Oannes

    Joined:
    May 8, 2006
    Messages:
    2,612
    Likes Received:
    2
    Hi Q...I was really speaking figuratively. You see I'm always trippn' somewhere since I tend to be a legend in my own mind.

    flow....;)
     
  20. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2003
    Messages:
    9,906
    Likes Received:
    5
    Aww, nuts! :mad: And here I was just beginning to smell the salt in the air again...:eek: :D


    edit: ok, The Med, Black, Adriatic, Caspian, Red, Persian Gulf and Sargasso (Indian Ocean)
     

Share This Page