If not Jesus, then who?

Discussion in 'Judaism' started by Awaiting_the_fifth, Aug 22, 2005.

  1. Awaiting_the_fifth

    Awaiting_the_fifth Where is my mind?

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    Peace,

    I have been reading some other threads about how Jews do not accept that Jesus was the Messiah. Can I just say that I accept this 100%, Im not recruiting Jews for Jesus or anything.

    I was wondering though, what do Jews mean when they say messiah? Who will he be? What is his purpose? When is he expected etc.

    One thing I have heard (from the discovery channel so probably not too reliable) is that the messiah is to be a warlike leader who would free the Jews. But of course, the Jews are free today. What's that about? Please feel free to correct me here.

    I would like to stress that I mean no offense to the Jewish religion, but I was raised a Catholic and was taught that Jesus was the messiah, I would like to hear the other side of the argument.
     
  2. bananabrain

    bananabrain awkward squadnik

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    have a read of this and then come back to us with any more specific questions: http://www.jewfaq.org/moshiach.htm

    and, of course "freedom" is relative. and it's not just about that, either.

    b'shalom

    bananabrain
     
  3. Abogado del Diablo

    Abogado del Diablo Ferally Decent

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    It's hard to imagine in this day of paparazzi and dirty politics, any person managing to appear to live up to the expectations for the moshiach.
     
  4. Awaiting_the_fifth

    Awaiting_the_fifth Where is my mind?

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    Thank you Mr Brain. Most enlightening. I must say, this certainly doesnt describe Jesus.

    I find it very strange that I studied all my young life at catholic schools and yet no one ever pointed out these passages to me (which are of course, also in the bible).

    Without intending offense, how literally are these passages taken? Do the Jews here believe that he will actually be a military leader for example? or is this a metaphore for something?

    What joy it is to learn!
     
  5. shagger

    shagger turquoise

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    who exactly maybe lucifer
     
  6. pohaikawahine

    pohaikawahine Elder Member

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    allow me to share another perspective on this question "if not Jesus, then who?"
    perhaps the answer is "all of us", we are all prophets .... since I believe that the process of visions and revelations exists within each of us (there are no exceptions) I would say "when we remember who we were, we will know who we are, and our freedom will return" .... I believe that all ancient religions and traditions are linked through an ancient "path or line of wisdom" .... the Hopi, native american, have a saying "we are the one's we've been waiting for" .... one might say "we are all buddhas", we are all prophets,we are all evolving to a higher status as human beings .... the problem may have been in the interpretation of ancient texts .... we keep looking outside of ourselves for the "savior" and in fact, we need to save ourselves by looking inward .... I believe that we are all the 'chosen ones' when return to the ancient path of knowledge and are able to open that place in the center of our brains where the three become One... it is not about "good" and "evil", but it is about a return to the perfect balance .... is it possible to have heaven on earth .... absolutely, when we reconnect that ancient path or way .... all paths lead to the mountaintop and when we get there we see the same moon .... I read the web site that you referenced bananabrain on the moshiach and believe the criteria is correct, especially the one "he will be a human being,not a god, demi-god or othe supernatural being" ...and it takes a great warrior to walk this path.... when the time is right each of us has the capability ...and it will take place in the promised land .... just my thoughts to share .... he hawai'i au, pohaikawahine
     
  7. bananabrain

    bananabrain awkward squadnik

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    <mod>
    "shagger" - i presume this is a joke. as you are obviously the same person as "ulanda", consider this a warning and try and make your posts relevant in the future, or expect the consequences.
    </mod>

    well, quite. imagine the investigations into his background, the interviews with his schoolteachers, the dirt-digging.... *sigh*

    i guess that's kind of the point.

    well, there's a lot of other stuff to learn i expect. the main reason why christians would be interested in them would be to try to prove that messianic prophecies in the "OT" applied to jesus and, frankly, i think catholics have better things to do with their time; there's plenty of less controversial things to study.

    it depends who you ask. we have our own literalists and, of course it is possible to understand this on many different levels. so some people think that it'll be a great general who turns to religion (effi eitam, the leader of the NRP political party in israel, seems to think it's himself, for example, but then he would, the nutcase, not that he was even that good a general) whereas others understand it as more of a spiritual thing or even as a collective, internal, mystical calling, in the way pokawahine refers to. don't forget that there are also traditions of *two* messiahs, one who will be killed in the "wars of gog and magog" (don't even ask) and one who will bring peace and healing and so on afterwards. the point is that this area of prophecy is one which is fraught with difficulty, not to say controversy and it's really not that easy to say what is or isn't meant sometimes. we've also had many false or unsuccessful messiahs, not just jesus, but bar kochba, the unfortunate shabbetai tzvi, or even the late lubavitcher rebbe r. schneerson z"l. some people also figured that as cyrus, the king of persia let the jews rebuild the second Temple, he was the messiah, but, as i say, it's not exactly clear.

    b'shalom

    bananabrain
     
  8. Awaiting_the_fifth

    Awaiting_the_fifth Where is my mind?

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    Sorry. Im going to have to ask.

    Two Messiah's?

    Wars of who and who?
    (actually I have read little bits about this but I dont understand much of it, but I'd like to :) )
     
  9. Zin

    Zin New Member

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    Hi,

    since you refer to the Mesiah as a male figure "Who will he be? What is his purpose?", it is quite clear that you envisage this entity as:

    a) A complete external reference.
    b) Parental figure, most propably a father figure.
    c) Described within an abstract, virtual environment.

    All of these clearly point to the relevance of the view used to describe this entity, have you ever wondered how you would describe the same entity if you had no religious reference to it? Zin makes you think..

    Regards
    Zin
     
  10. Awaiting_the_fifth

    Awaiting_the_fifth Where is my mind?

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    An interesting question, but how is it possible to have no reference to a prophesised figure? The prophet obviously referred to him.
     
  11. Zin

    Zin New Member

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    Hi,

    you need to keep in mind that the prophet that you have in mind, can only be described by you - every other individual can and will have another view on your idea of the concept "prophet". This alone makes the topic of the prophet impossible to describe nor explain, for the references that you use to describe and explain the concept are completely unique to your view of what you call "IT".

    And since "IT" can be whatever you want IT to be, you can imagine who the prophet might be for a blind man in a small village in the Himalayas and what IT might represent for myself that never heard of the prophet..

    A bit of the topic but if you want to really understand your true nature, please explain to me: How you open your hand. Not the physical act (which will take you a while to explain anyway), I'm talking about the automatic function that takes place the moment you decide to open your hand..

    Nice talking to you - Love black and white disturbs the Light.
     
  12. Awaiting_the_fifth

    Awaiting_the_fifth Where is my mind?

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    But the prophet is not described by me, he is described by Jewish scriptures. The reason I started this thread was to ask the Jews here who they are waiting for.

    As for the hand opening thing, start a new thread and I'll talk about it for months!:)
     
  13. Zin

    Zin New Member

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    Thank you for clearing that up, it seems like a reasonable thing to ask the Jews to explain, although I think they might find it a bit difficult. Since it's very hard to find more than one view of life when viewing life from within one religion. The only way you can describe your current position is when you move, thus you can see where you were and only then can you reference that against your new position..

    On the matter of the hand, you will be surprised to know that it has been discovered that choice cannot be detected within the brain, only the instruction after the choice has been made to do something get detected - thus choice does not take place within the mind...

    May IT flow pure and pleasurable through you..
     
  14. bananabrain

    bananabrain awkward squadnik

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    er... do you have a question? i can't work out what you're getting at. have i not answered sufficiently? have i not made clear the multiplicity of opinion? at very least, i do try to highlight differences of approach, regardless of my own.

    b'shalom

    bananabrain
     
  15. dauer

    dauer Well-Known Member

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    I don't believe in a human messiah, or in any particularly divine merit to Jewish Scriptures besides that which we bestow on it, but I also feel that a belief that pulls forward is powerful. I may be closer to BB's collective concept, although I don't really think we'll ever reach a messianic plateau. Maybe more like multiple plateaus along the way, in different places, Godwilling someday including all of the world, but that's the pulling I'm talking about.

    My old rabbi suggested it could refer to great people who rise up in any given place to help a needy people, like Gandhi. I also like the idea that it has to do with oil, annointing, and we can each be the oil that allows things to flow smoother and thus be a part of that messiah-ing, in any given moment. But these are more for pragmatic and sentimental reasons since I reject divine authorship, and also because I like living in myth sometimes. It's colorful.

    Dauer
     
  16. BlaznFattyz

    BlaznFattyz Well-Known Member

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    be careful what u wish for.

    a person or govt. may create peace either politically, religiously, monetarily ; yet it will be a false peace and in doing so will deceive many in believing in man's ability to create peace without God. there is no true peace other than The Lord's.
     
  17. pohaikawahine

    pohaikawahine Elder Member

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    my first response was to ask that if the Lord was the root of true peace, then why don't we live in peace .... so man must play some role in bringing about peace .... but this becomes a circular discussion ....so I guess my question to the group is, what is peace?

    Two very interesting and profound points have been brought up in this thread .... bananabrains reference that there might be "2 messiah" one killed in the war of "gog and magog" and the other who will bring peace (might these be the twins .... esau and jacob who struggle with each other throughout their lifetime .... or the two native american hopi warriors poqanghoya and palongawhoya, who guard the north and south poles and send vibrations to each other along the earth's axis .... both of whom, in my view, symbolize the spiralling energy within) .... I would love to hear more about the war of gog and magog (why did you say "don't ask") ....

    the other point was zen's question about opening the hand .... followed by "choice cannot be detected in the brain .... only the instruction after the choice has been made, choice does not take place in the brain" ....

    all three points above play a role in the question of what is peace (in my view ) if human's can bring about peace by changing the way we think or by changing our minds .... if we follow the "way of" spirit .... if we become more christ-like, if we become more buddha-like .... if we return to the ancient path of knowledge (the way of the mystic) .... if we move that spiralling energy within up into the brain center and open the brain to new ways of thinking .... would we fulfill the prophecies that say we can return to a world of peace (both internally and externally) .... if the spiralling energies (which I call the 'twins' which constantly struggle with each other .... thus could be called warriors or generals) can move through deep meditation or prayer (not the kind where you ask for something, but the kind where you give of yourself to the void or the space between your thoughts .... that place where choice perhaps does not take place in the brain) .... maybe all of the above is true .... only if you see the symbols .... just my thought to share on the subject .... he hawai'i au, pohaikawahine p.s. and speaking of flow, after re-reading this, I'm not even sure I could follow it .... oh well, I tried ....

    one more p.s. the concept of opposition, battling, struggle of the twins is also the concept of opposition which has to be overcome in order to achieve individual awareness .... it is also the internal struggle to overcome the barriers placed by our own egos ... etc.
     
  18. pohaikawahine

    pohaikawahine Elder Member

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    forgot the first question .... If not Jesus, then maybe Us ....
     
  19. star light

    star light New Member

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    hi
    from a jewish perspective the messia meaning the lords anointed, will be a human being, who must forfill certon criteriea before being exepted as messia
    he must be jewish deuteronomy 17 15
    he must be a member of the house of judah genasis 49 10
    he must be a direct male desendent of king david and king sollomon 2 samual 7 12-13
    he is expected to gather all the jews from exike and return them to israel issaiah 10 12
    he will rebuild the temple in jerusalem ezekeil 37 26-27
    he will bring world peace micah 4 3
    he will bring all jews back to observing all G-D s commandments ezekiel 37 24
    he will bring the knowlage of the one true G-d to all people issaiah 66 23
    all is best summed up in ezekeil 37 24-28
    i hope this answears at least part of your questions
     
  20. bananabrain

    bananabrain awkward squadnik

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    did you read the rest of the thread?

    well, welcome to the board and thank you for answering the questions so definitively for us.

    b'shalom

    bananabrain
     

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