Why did Jesus have to die?

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by Awaiting_the_fifth, Sep 29, 2005.

  1. Awaiting_the_fifth

    Awaiting_the_fifth Where is my mind?

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    Peace to all,

    I think I should begin by saying that I am not here to attack the Christian faith, I am only seeking answers to questions.

    My question is this

    Why did jesus have to die for our sins?

    If God is truly all powerful, could he not have simply forgiven mankind for its sins without his son having to suffer so badly? I have asked this question of many Christians (mostly Roman Catholic) but no one has ever managed to explain it to me.

    Looking foreward to your responses.
     
  2. Rouge47

    Rouge47 Follower of Christ

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    Greetings,

    I believe that Jesus died for our sins in the way that He did to show us how we could forgive others. One of the most powerful ways to forgive someone is to sacrifice for them. That is what Jesus for us. He died for us so we could know (or at least have some idea) what we could do to help the world. True...,killing ourselves isn't the best way to help the world. But, what I mean is this: people sin everyday, we cannot blaim ourselves for the way people act. We can only forgive them and move on. But Jesus did more than just forgive. He showed us how to really follow our Father and walk in His footsteps. What we do for others will reflect on our awards when we enter heaven to be with Him.

    How the power of one man...can make a difference in the entire world...

    God Bless and hope this helps,
    Paul James
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2005
  3. Bandit

    Bandit Well-Known Member

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    Place WHY after each period & see what happens.
    There is love. (why). remission of sin. (why). Jesus was given a commandment to lay down his life. (why). To manifest the living God in his life that others would believe in the invisible, immortal living God. reconcilation. to give us the hope in glory that we too will be resurrected to eternal life...
    Jesus is the only one who could qualify to accomplish the complete will of God. It was necessary. (why)
    God has purposes within purpose that He has purposed.
    There is more than one answer for WHY but there is also a root.

    it is a legitimate question & things do not add up for me with the basic answers because like you are seeing, there seems to be a missing gear.
    i suppose you will get 6 billion different answers.
    i see it all the same way Christians do, yet i see a little more than the general consensus that rests on the surface.
    If you really want to talk about it some more in depth one day, ATF, I would share what I see in private. I dont feel obliged to disclose in full & only share what I see in part, when I feel hints of an honest heart through specific questions for WHY.:)

    I know all of this did not answer your question.
     
  4. BlaznFattyz

    BlaznFattyz Well-Known Member

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    jesus christ is the ultimate sacrifice, the lamb of god. instead of having to constantly sacrifice animals for sins, god sent his only son to be sacrificed for us. if we believe in him and ask for forgiveness, then we are forgiven completely and we belong to him and enter in to gods kingdom through jesus. jesus came to the jews, the chosen people, but was rejected, now he is now the high priest of those who believe in him and those that do can receive the holy spirit and rest and everlasting life. He was raised to glory after his death. his resurrection signifies his defeating death.

    "since the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death he might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil."

    his death, resurrection, being the son of god all have to do with us believing this and having faith. those that believe are saved by their faith.
     
  5. kaykay

    kaykay New Member

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    Hey, by the way this is just my opinion I'm putting forward for the record, as I agree with everything you guys have said in this post so far, but I just think there's so many different ways to look at this issue, and so this is mine :)

    God created humans, and he created us with free will. As sin entered this world, we chose to go further and further away from God. Although there were ways of becoming close to God (e.g. all the animal sacrifices in the Old Testament), the bridge between us and God got bigger and bigger as we continued sinning.
    So God, in all his compassion, sent his Son as a sacrifice for us, to bridge the gap we had created between us and God. Because, unlike the animal sacrifices, this sacrifice was enough to save al of us forever, so we needn't sacrifice anything else again.

    So, even though God is all - powerful, he did not create the gap between us and him - we did, by sinning. And God filled it with his Son.

    Hope it helps :)
     
  6. mee

    mee Interfaith Forums

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    As the first man Adam lost everlasting life on a paradise earth ,Jesus can help us get it back

    (Genesis 2:17) But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die

    That is why, just as through one man (Adam)sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned..romans 5;12


    For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord.... Romans 6;23

    Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many.

    For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive 1 corinthians 15;22

    It is even so written: "The first man Adam became a living soul." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit..1 corinthians 15;45 ..so we can only get everlasting life back because of Gods son jesus christ, and that enemy death , will be a thing of the past

    As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing 1 corinthians 15;26

     
  7. Virtual_Cliff

    Virtual_Cliff Well-Known Member

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    There you are, Awaiting the Fifth, BlaznFattyz puts the dogma nicely - one full and perfect sacrifice etc etc. I used to believe this totally, but it just doesn't do it for me any more. Is that all there is to our faith then, just a perpetual life society? If that is so, then we have no moral advantage over those who believe in cryogenics, only our methods differ: we put our faith in Christ, they put theirs in Science. For myself, I think it's not the length of life that counts but the quality. If all I get is this physical span of years, I shall be thankful if I have known God in it. What do you think?
     
  8. Awesome Possum

    Awesome Possum Member

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    Okay, I was about to write the long version...but it's 2 AM here, so I have to give the short version.

    Man is burdened with a debt that he himself is in no position to pay. God demands justice, and we need mercy, but justice and mercy cannot coincide, for they are opposites. But, a way has been provided from the foundation of the world. Animal sacrifices were done in similtude of the great and last sacrifice (the animal sacrifices actually did not remove sins, but Jesus did....in the future.) Christ paid our debt, for he was the only one worthy enough for he lived without sin. As the Son of God, he was able to do so, having all the attributes of His Father in Heaven to live perfectly and godlike, while being able to suffer mortal pain and death with his human attributes. We are then given the chance to accept this vicarious sacrifice made in mankind's behalf...we exercise faith in Christ, showing him in word and in deed that we will live worthy of redemption from sin. God is holy and so is his presence. We must be equally holy to be in His presence, and sin does well to separate us from God (making us unclean). Having faith in Christ will keep us clean. Having faith will give us mercy while totally satisfying the demands of justice. It's a perfect system for it was set up by a divine person. Why did Jesus have to die? It was either him or us. The only thing that can fully pay our debt to a being such as God is shed blood because it's only fair. Now all that's necessary is a broken heart and a contrite spirit. We need not die in our sins. If you believe that doesn't answer the question to whether or not Jesus had to die, we at least know that it was in God's plan of happiness...and I highly doubt that God could have erred in any of his planning (no screw ups and no back-up plans...God is at the helm of everything at all times). Isaiah 53:10 "Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him;..." This is a well-known prophecy of Christ's life: we see that God had every intention of sacrificing His Son. It was according to plan.

    I could go on for days. And this is just the short version.
     
  9. Faithfulservant

    Faithfulservant Well-Known Member

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    mee answered it. The wages of sin is death. Jesus Christ was the final sacrifice. If you understand Christ as being God you can see the mercy of God.. He made the rules He made the consequences and then chose to send His only begotten son to save everyone by finishing it Himself. Its a beautiful thing. He not only made it impossible to get to Him by our own means He made it possible through His son Jesus so that we would come to Him by choice.. its just that in a nutshell He wants us to come to HIM.
    everytime there is a sin committed its like a debt and you spend time paying off that debt and because its impossible to not sin the debt gets bigger and bigger and more and more impossible to pay off. Jesus paid that sin debt.
     
  10. Saltmeister

    Saltmeister The Dangerous Dinner

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    We have all heard that it's for the forgiveness of sins.

    I think it's more than that. Forgiveness for sins is only one of the things he came to do. So why did he have to die?

    Concerning the reality we are living in and believe in, there are a number of spiritual and theological problems.

    1. Our human nature is corrupt because we have knowledge of evil -- that is, we can lie, we can choose to be selfish, greedy, arrogant, lustful, jealous, etc.

    2. We are not now living in God's Kingdom. We are separated from God and do not have his regenerative power within us.

    3. We are slaves of sin. We must be somehow freed from sin so that we will never sin again. Sin has its power to harm us because spiritual death is the completion of sin, and sin is a partial form of spiritual death.

    Spiritual death is where a person is thoroughly possessed by evil and wickedness, depriving them of the power to do good and therefore making them cursed to be evil forever. I believe spiritual death happens because a person renders himself useless for the purpose of being a positive, good influence for the people in this world. As a result, God removes the person's ability to do good, making them purely evil.

    I recall Jesus saying somewhere that branches that are useless are tossed into the fire and burned -- "If you do not remain in Me, I will not remain in you."

    4. Last but not least, we have sinned. We cannot enter God's Kingdom without first being cleared of the record of wrongdoing.

    So what did Jesus come to do and why did he have to die?

    1. Second Adam: Adam chose to have a knowledge of both good and evil. We now know that his decision was a mistake. Knowledge of evil -- dark and unholy wisdom, leads to evil and wickedness. It destroys lives. Jesus, the Second Adam leads us to a time and place where we will be cleansed of this destructive disease and will no longer have to choose between good and evil but will only be able to choose good.

    We all have to die to this reality and be born in the reality of God's Kingdom. The rebirth can only take place after we have been severed physically from this world -- that is, we have to die physically first.

    This resolves the problem present in our human nature as mentioned in point (1).

    2. Path to God's Kingdom: Jesus atoning sacrifice was a ritual that opened a doorway to God's Kingdom. The curtain veiling the Holy of Holies tore open, meaning that human beings could once again have direct contact with God. Those who choose to follow the Way of Truth have direct contact with God in the sense that His Spirit lives in them.

    We were separated from God but now we can find a way back to God's Kingdom, resolving point (2).

    3a. Liberator and Conqueror of Death and Sin: Christ's resurrection is a sign that God has not only opened a way for us to conquer death, but also sin. Death is the completion of sin, so by sinning we start a time-bomb inside our hearts that blows up when the time is up. Death means that the time is up. Sin's sole purpose is to destroy our lives. As a destroyer, sin is like a parasite that lives in us and in time, we will be completely possessed by sin.

    Anyone ever watched The Never-Ending Story? It's where this kid keeps making wishes and one day when he realises that after two more wishes he will lose all of his memories. He is told, "Two more wishes and the Emptiness will possess you." Sin is a bit like that. It's a parasite that wants to control our minds.

    Jesus never sinned, but he conquered what caused death: sin. As a result, anyone who follows his path will be able to do the same.

    3b. Lamb of God - Passover Lamb (Liberator from Slavery by Sin): The Israelites were freed by the so-called Passover. Lambs were slaughtered and their blood wiped over the doorways of their homes to tell God's angel to pass over their homes. Because of the death of the firstborn of all Egypt, the Israelites were freed from slavery by the Egyptians.

    The original Passover meal was celebrated the night before the Day of Liberation.

    While Moses was Liberator from slavery by the Egyptians, Jesus was Liberator from slavery by sin. On Judgment Day, Death will pass over us.

    The Lord's Supper celebrated by Jesus and his disciples was also the Passover meal. The original Lord's Supper took place the night before Jesus' cruxificion -- the Day of Liberation, repeating the same thing that happened centuries before.

    Jesus, God's Firstborn Son, died on the cross serving the role of the Firstborn, Passover Lamb and Liberator all at the same time. He now leads us to the Promised Land, which is God's Kingdom. In other words, Moses, the Passover lamb and the firstborn of Egypt were all archetypes of Jesus.

    This resolves the problem of us being slaves of sin as mentioned in point (3).

    4. Lamb of God - Atonement for Sins: and yes, we must be cleared of the record of wrongdoing before entering God's Kingdom. This is why our sins must be forgiven.

    Jesus actually serves two different purposes as "the Lamb of God" -- the Passover and the Atonement.
     
  11. Rouge47

    Rouge47 Follower of Christ

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    Why did Jesus have to die? Even now I am starting to ponder on this fasinating subject.:)

    There is a common belief that Jesus was "ransomed" for our sins - thus, he had to die in order for our sins to be forgiven. This view has been held by many, but not all Christians. One might consider this the "hidden" debate in Mel Gibson's movie "The Passion" because Gibson obviously adopts the ransom theory, even though other positions are equally legitimate.

    Jesus had the power to destroy all sin in the world right then and there, but he didn't. I believe that he did it for love. Not to show off or to unleash his wrath with arrogance. He did it, I believe, to show us the true way in which to forgive. Not by punishment, but though the "passion" of his soul. That is why Jesus died for our sins on the cross. He did what any man would fear most to do... he gave his life in forgiveness.


    I hope This helps some.


    God Bless,
    Paul
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2005
  12. Blessed87

    Blessed87 A restored soul

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    1 Cor. 15:20-26 "But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death."


    Many people have posted defending the ransom stuff, but I believe there's even more. Christ didn't die just to keep being dead. He died to come back to life, to be resurrected, to show His power, His true identity: as the Diety Himself on earth. Death couldn't keep it's hold on Him, because He was God. He is God. Yes, He did it because of love, and to pay for our sins, and to bring us close to God, and all of that is vitally important. But He also did it because then, He could show His glorious power. All of that and more is why He is worthy of our lives, He is worthy to be our Lord, our Boss.

    Oh, I love talking about Jesus! He is love. "Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:35-40

    Our sin is more than God can stand, but Jesus says that it's paid for now. Just believe Him and live.
     
  13. mee

    mee Interfaith Forums

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    YOU heard that I said to YOU, I am going away and I am coming [back] to YOU. If YOU loved me, YOU would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.........John 14;28 so Jesus said that the father was greater than him, so there seems to be a contradition here, on the one hand you are saying that Jesus is God then on the other hand you are quoting scripture saying that the father sent him the bible never contradics itself it is only people who do that,the bible is quite plain to see

    (John 20:17) Jesus said to her: "Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God..........so Jesus said that the father was his God ,if Jesus was the Allmighty God he could not have a God also

    (1 Corinthians 11:3) But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God......yes Jesus christ has a head , and it is his father , the same way that we look to Jesus and a wife is under headship of her husband ......so no the bible tells us that Jesus is not the Allmighty God Jehovah,jesus is under headship of his father Jehovah God, The bible is always consistent it only contradicts when a wrong meaning is applied.

    (1 Corinthians 15:28) But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One (Jehovah God his father)who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone



    (Philippians 2:6) who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God...... so Jesus is not equal to his father Jehovah God ......so the bible teaches us that Jesus is not God himself ....of coarse if we choice to believe otherwise that is our choice but i would rather stick to bible teaching .everyone to their own though

     
  14. BlaznFattyz

    BlaznFattyz Well-Known Member

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    first off, nowhere in the bible is "jehova god" in the bible. i dont know who made that up or taught you that, but its not there.
    second, yes there is a distinction what jesus knows and what his father knows, as in the exact time of jesus' second coming.
    third, jesus has all the authority, holiness, and power that god desires, and sits at his right hand of god. to outright say jesus is not god himself maybe an incorrect statement from a human mind point of view regarding something spirtually supernatural such as jesus being born of the holy spirit and being the word and son of god from the beginning, as he did say he was I Am as well. i believe jesus christ and the holy spirit are god in different forms to do different things. i would say god the father in his original form is so holy he must manifest himself in jesus and the holy spirit to communicate with us. kind of like a big pitcher of water and pouring two glasses of water, yet they are all the same water. to reject jesus is rejecting god as well, and if you know jesus, you know god too.
     
  15. Rouge47

    Rouge47 Follower of Christ

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    I am in full agreement on that. I believe in the trinity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. And I also like your analogies, too. True, also, that if you know Jesus then you know God, and, aswell, the Holy Spirit.

    God Bless,
    Paul
     
  16. Blessed87

    Blessed87 A restored soul

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    I agree with you, Blazn, good analogy, too. And mee, I can see your reasoning, Jesus always (to the best of my knowledge) calls God the Father.

    I have a question (mainly for mee): Why couldn't Jesus be God? What makes that hard to accept? I'm simply seeking opinions, based on verses or personal convictions.
     
  17. mee

    mee Interfaith Forums

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    because he was Gods son
    After being baptized Jesus immediately came up from the water; and, look! the heavens were opened up, and he saw descending like a dove God’s spirit coming upon him. Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: "This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved....matthew 3;16-17

     
  18. Virtual_Cliff

    Virtual_Cliff Well-Known Member

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    OK, Mee. We get the point, you are a Jehova's Witness. The question was: Why did Jesus have to die?

    For that matter, if Christ was a ransom, why did he have to live so long? Why didn't Herod kill him? It doesn't add up.

    I believe he chose to give his life in the same way that Obiwan Kenobi did in Start Wars - to enable his followers - and all Christ's followers to this day - to carry on in his power. The Gospel of John quotes Jesus as saying (IIRC) "As the Father sent me so I send you". We are all the body of Christ, but this would not have been possible if Jesus had restricted his ministry to his own lifetime.
     
  19. BlaznFattyz

    BlaznFattyz Well-Known Member

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    ah yes, star wars. it seems to have alot to do with christianity for some reason doesnt it? so much so, some people even boycott it. why did obi won kenobi have to die? why did darth vader reject the good side? what is the force? lol.
     
  20. mee

    mee Interfaith Forums

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    the question that was asked of me was (why cant Jesus be God ) and i answered according to what Gods word tells me , and that is what it says in matthew 3;16-17 i do not rely on my own thoughts or what others say when it comes to the importance about who Jesus really is , the bible is quite plain Jesus is Gods son , not God himself as for why didnt Herod kill him , are you not aware that the bible is full of prophecies regarding Jesus and what happened to him.?
    "For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him (Jesus)might not be destroyed but have everlasting life......John 3;16 how could we put faith in Jesus if Herod had killed him



    (Romans 8:32) He who did not even spare his own Son but delivered him up for us all, why will he not also with him kindly give us all other things.......As for star wars ... well what can i say other than :) Yes we can imitate Jesus and what he taught because every thing that Jesus taught came from his father

    (John 7:16) Jesus, in turn, answered them and said: "What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me

    because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me John 6;38

    Therefore Jesus said: "When once YOU have lifted up the Son of man, then YOU will know that I am [he], and that I do nothing of my own initiative; but just as the Father taught me I speak these things John 8;28...yes every thing that jesus taught was what he learnt from his Father . Jesus is the son of man because he was born of a woman , (mary)but before that he had a heavenly life in the heavens with his father


    (John 4:34) Jesus said to them: "My food is for me to do the will of him that sent me and to finish his work......yes he came to earth to do his fathers will, so there was a reason why he came to the earth it was to do his Fathers will.

    Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. proverbs 8;22-23

    He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; colossians 1;15




     

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