Original Sin? Need Explanation

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by Jibran, Oct 24, 2005.

  1. Jibran

    Jibran Peace

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    Pease be on all,

    I have a great interest in the study of comparative religion and therefore I randomly study various different religions and their sacred books.

    Though I have been studying Christianity for quite a long time and trying to grasp the ideology and thinking of the Bible and and the followers of Bible yet there are some beleifs or views which I have't got satisfactory answers or explanations to. I would like to continue asking Christians about some of their beliefs and I hope I can better understand the Christianity through these discussions.

    Coming to the point, Can someone tell me about the concept of the original sin? What it is all about and what does Bible says about it? How it influenced the Christians through the history and where does it stand now?

    I'll be obliged if someone asnwers this question.
    Thanks in advance.

    Jibran
     
  2. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Admin

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    Well, I appreciate that there is a more technical Christian answer than I can provide for - however, if I may, the core of "original sin" is nothing more remarkable than that at some point, Man turned his back on God.

    I'll allow the Christians to provide the details. :)
     
  3. stevemb88

    stevemb88 Well-Known Member

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    To understand Origional Sin you must first understand that God created humans with the right to choose.

    The story:

    After God created man and created the garden of Eden He made one rule and only one rule, He said that there was a specific fruit from the "tree of Knowledge" that human (at the time Adam and Eve) could not eat. So after being tempted by the snake (some believe to be Satan) Eve *chose* to eat of the tree. After she had eaten from the tree she told Adam to try it and he *chose* to also eat therefore rebeling against God's one and only rule. Therefore, resulting in the Origional Sin.
     
  4. Jibran

    Jibran Peace

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    Hi,

    Thanks for you reply.

    In answer to my question you have quoted the Bible but I would also like you to kindly give the reference as well. The book? The chapter? The verse so it will be helpful for me.

    Yes, Christians hold the view that God created humans with the right to choose and, I agree, it is also in accordance with the common human logic, but how will you explain the concept of Original Sin and its applications in depth through the free will of human beings?

    In the garden of Eden, how the disobedience of, primarily, Eve and then on her temptation, of Adam, can help me understand what is known as original sin?

    Hope to hear from you soon

    I thank both of you for taking the trouble of replying to my question.

    Jibran
     
  5. Bandit

    Bandit Well-Known Member

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    i am thinking 'Original Sin' is a term that was adopted by some to explain the fall of Adam & has been incorporated into another doctrine & considered politcally correct by many. (like trinity, rapture etc.) i dont think you will find it worded that way in the bible. (not sure)

    you might try a study under disobedience, death, curse, sin, repentance, remission of sin, resurrection & related words if you really want to understand it.
    Here is a starter but i recommend the whole chapter.


    & welcome Jibran:)
     
  6. mee

    mee Interfaith Forums

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    The first sin was an attack on God’s sovereignty." Yes, "the tree of the knowledge of good and bad" symbolized God’s prerogative to set the standards for man as to what is approved or what is condemned. By refusing to obey God’s law, man was calling into question God’s very right to rule over him. Jehovah justly answered the challenge by allowing man to rule himself. Wouldn’t you agree that the results have been disastrous?—Deuteronomy 32:5; Ecclesiastes 8:9

     
  7. Saltmeister

    Saltmeister The Dangerous Dinner

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    The question you're asking is, if sin didn't exist, how did Adam disobey God?

    Is that correct?

    My answer is this: disobeying God isn't inherently a sin.

    However, because God is all-knowing and because He is a Holy God, whenever He tells us to do something, it's because it's inherently and intrinsically a sin if we don't do it. In other words, the sin is not disobeying God, but doing what is inherently wrong or may be "spiritually dangerous."

    What God is really doing is warning us that we are about to cross into a path of sin. God knows what we want to do and He also knows that we are about to choose a dangerous path.

    God told Adam not to eat the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil because it was spiritually dangerous. By eating the fruit Adam gained knowledge of evil and was thereafter capable of sin.

    That was why it was dangerous and that was why God warned Adam not to eat the fruit. Adam disobeyed God because he was naive.

    Eating the fruit was not the sin itself.

    It was the fruit itself that introduced sin into Adam's human nature. Because we are all descendents of Adam, we inherit his human nature. Greed, hatred, arrogance, selfishness, lust, etc. all come from this fruit.

    The sin came from the fruit, not from Adam's disobedience.

    Sure, human beings have free will, but it's a question of what we can do with free will. Why did Adam have to eat the fruit in the first place? Why did Satan have to get Adam to eat it?

    The reason was simple: Adam could not sin without first eating the fruit. Even with free will, Adam was not capable of greed, arrogance, selfishness, lust, hatred, etc. All these things came from the fruit.
     
  8. mee

    mee Interfaith Forums

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    Romans 5;12

    That is why, just as through one man(Adam) sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned.................... so that is why we need the ransom sacrifice of Jesus christ to get everlasting life back again

    For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord...romans 6;23

    romans 3;24 and it is as a free gift that they are being declared righteous by his undeserved kindness through the release by the ransom [paid] by Christ Jesus




    (Matthew 20:28) Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many."




    (1 Corinthians 1:30) But it is due to him that YOU are in union with Christ Jesus, who has become to us wisdom from God, also righteousness and sanctification and release by ransom;





    (1 Timothy 2:6) who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—[this is] what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times.


    (Colossians 1:14) by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins








    (Genesis 2:17) But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die

    It is even so written: "The first man Adam became a living soul." The last Adam(Jesus) became a life-giving spirit...1 CORINTHIANS 15;45

    Yet, because of the ransom, we have hope! Jesus is the seed by means of whom, as God promised, "all nations of the earth will certainly bless themselves." (Genesis 22:18; Romans 8:20) Jesus’ sacrifice opens the door to marvelous opportunities for those who exercise faith in him. and we can get everlasting life back again:)

    Christ’s ransom opens the way for the fulfillment of God’s purpose—that obedient humans live forever in Paradise on earth. (Psalm 37:29)

     
  9. Jibran

    Jibran Peace

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    Hi Bandit,

    Thanks for the welcome :)

    Yes, I couldnt find the "original sin" in the Bible for it seems to be the doctrine devised later in the religion.

    However I am studying under the words you mentioned like death, curse etc, but still I would like to have a clear Christian interpretation of the doctrine of the "original sin" and how it affects the beleifs and lives of a believer.

    Thanks for your answer

    Jibran
     
  10. Jibran

    Jibran Peace

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    Yes it does seem so!
     
  11. lunamoth

    lunamoth Episcopalian

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    Here is a brief overview. The doctrine of original sin started with Augustine. I present it just for information, not as a personal belief.

    From: original sin

    peace,
    lunamoth
     
  12. Jibran

    Jibran Peace

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    Hiya saltmeister,

    Well the question I have posed was a bit different yet partially related to the point you mentioned. Even, the question and your asnwer was in itself quite helpful to my understanding of the disobedience of Adam and its consequences. Yet I would like you to give your thought on the consequences of this disobedience.

    Adam disobeyed God by eating the fruit of the forbidden true and it was thus he was introduced to the capabiltity of sin which was ultimately inherited by his descendents. So it means that every human being is born with the capabilty to do sin as well as free will but not that humans are born with a burden of sin due to the wrongdoing of their first father. May I further simplify that humans are NOT born in sin but they are born sinless BUT only with the capacity or capability to do sin.

    Did I rightly understand it? If yes, It seems a bit contrary to what I have been told by the books and people of the Christian faith.

    Thanks for your time

    Jibran
     
  13. Jibran

    Jibran Peace

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    Hi lunamoth,

    Thanks for your reply. It helped me understand what Augustine had said regarding original sin. Here, I would like to discuss it with anyone who's willing.

    It says that "every human being is born with a disposition to sin", which is the prevailing tendency, mood or inclination to do sin. I think it is an integral part of the human free will which would be meaningless without the ability or inclination to do sin. Since there are two paths shown by Almighty it is us, the humans, to decide with our free will which way to choose though God has warned us againt the wrong path.

    It appears that If Adam would not have acquired the capability to sin by eating the fruit, his childern would never have sinned. But the point is that If humans would not have the capacity to sin on the first hand, their characteristic of free will would have been in doubt.

    By not having the capability to sin equals the humans to the Angels who, according to the held view, do not have free will and thus they do not have the capability or tendency to sin. thus they always obey their Lord in all conditions.

    How, we can justify the free will of Adam with his NO capability to sin before eating the fruit?

    Secondly, how can sin be a hereditary disease while not having the ability to sin contradicts the characteristic of free will?
    I hope I have explained myself.

    Thanks for your time

    Jibran
     
  14. Bandit

    Bandit Well-Known Member

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    original just sounds like the first, preceding all & not second, which would put
    adam in that category all the way around not just in transgression.
    i have heard some say that satan & his pride to rise above God was the original sin also.
    What Adam brought was the curse of death & what Jesus did was break that curse through his blood & obedience to God, allowing man back into favor with God & the ability to obtain eternal life through inheritance. (& i do believe adam was a real person. if he was just a fairy tale like some believe, then Jesus was a fairy tale who told fairy tales also & Christianity seems a bit silly to me IMO)

    i for one do not believe God imputes sin onto another. everyone is accontable for what they do & say. if you run the red light, the cop does not issue a ticket to your neighbor for your own offense.
    i dont think the sin of the world was imputed onto Jesus either like some believe, rather sin is remitted or i should say for the remission of sin.
    i have heard some say that each person should be punished on the cross & that Jesus was punishing himself for everyones sin. well if that is true, then things dont add up for me.

    the scripture says

    2Cor5:21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
    John1:21 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.


    i do think there are some 'funny' doctrines out there called original sin that do not make sense to me.
    maybe tell me what it is you believe or what you have heard & i can see from there if we agree.

     
  15. Bandit

    Bandit Well-Known Member

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    this is a true statement.:)

    for there were some who did not sin after the similtude of Adam.

    Romans 5:14 KJV
    Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses , even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

    what happened was, the curse of death upon all because of Adam & only one man could remove that curse...and that man was Jesus.

    see, God does not leave us without a way of escape, through our own choice. just like he did with Noah, Abraham & Moses :)

     
  16. Bandit

    Bandit Well-Known Member

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    you cannot sin until after the law is given. just like running a red light. if there is no law for running red lights, then there is no offense.

    I think this is a correct statement also.:)
    Adam could have chose to not eat from the tree. He could have even tried to stop Eve. But- God knew it was going to happen & allowed that to be. He also saw down the road that Jesus would make a way of escape for us By 'US', i mean all of Adams children. (whosoever will)

    God has purpose within the purpose for what He has purposed.
     
  17. I am free

    I am free And anything is possible

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    Hi Bandit,

    could you please explain what is meant by "curse of death"? Because people do die even when they believe in Jesus right? So I suppose the "curse of death" is something more...Forgive my ignorance, but I would like to know.
     
  18. Bandit

    Bandit Well-Known Member

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    Hi I am free:)

    oh yes. every man will die an earthly death & go back to dust. there is no doubt about that & the sin nature is still with us. but what Adam did was bring about a spiritual death that took us from the presence of God.

    So what Jesus did was, give us the ability to become alive unto God in spirit, even while still in the flesh. This is why God fills us with the Holy Ghost today because it makes us alive in spirit.
    This is why we need the Holy Ghost so that we will be raise up to incoruptible in spirit. Flesh & blood does not inherit the Kingdom of God. It is our spirit that becomes alive & will live forever with Jesus because Jesus broke that curse that Adam brought by getting victory over death & victory over sin.:)


    The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23).

    Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

    ~ Christ Is Our Advocate
    1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

    1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

    i recommend, again, the whole chapter of 1 Cor. 15 to get a better idea on it.

    <B>
    "For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin ... For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing ... O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" (Romans 7:14,18,24 KJV)​




    "it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" (Hebrews 9:27 KJV)</B>


     
  19. mee

    mee Interfaith Forums

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    Jehovah Gods purpose was for man to live on the earth forever and not to die ,we can get everlasting life back , christs ransom sacrifice opens the way
    To grasp the meaning of the ransom is to understand a key feature of God’s unfathomable "riches and wisdom and knowledge."—Romans 5:8; 11:33.

     
  20. Saltmeister

    Saltmeister The Dangerous Dinner

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    The idea is that when God created human beings, they were perfect, holy pure and void of evil thoughts.

    The question then is, did we have free will then?

    My answer is: yes. Here's my view.

    Every human being has instincts. Instincts are part of our human nature. Instincts are things we can do naturally. They are things we are capable of doing once we choose to do them. Instincts include things like love, kindness, generosity, humility, hatred, arrogance, greed, selfishness, lust, etc.

    Every human being also has behavioural tendencies. These tendencies constitute our character. The difference between human nature and character/personality is that human nature makes character/personality possible. Human nature is like the soil on which the plant, character/personality grows and develops.

    The plant may produce either good fruit, bad fruit or both. The fruit represents our character tendencies. The idea is that when God made Adam, he didn't have the ability to produce bad fruit, only good fruit. God didn't make Adam to produce bad fruit. The plant can only produce bad fruit if the soil itself is poisoned. God planted Adam on healthy soil, but Adam chose to grow on poisoned soil.

    The next question is, does this mean Adam didn't have free will?

    The answer is no. If a person follows his instincts, he is exercising his free will. Therefore, Adam had free will before he ate the fruit.

    Adam had free will without evil instincts before eating the fruit. Adam had free will with the possibility of choosing and following his evil instincts after eating the fruit. God made us perfectly capable of doing only good by following our instincts but Adam chose to be capable of evil.

    Sin doesn't just refer to a record of wrongdoing, but also a capability to sin. In other words, being born capable of sin means we are not sinless. The reason is that sin is living inside us.

    So what if a person never sins even though there is evil in him? Good for him. Evil being part of human nature still makes it possible for people to sin. A person who has been perfectly good all his life but then starts to sin is worse then someone who is reckless at first and then turns a new leaf.

    What was the point of being good in the first place? A person who never sins despite having evil in him is just as bad as everyone else. He is still capable of evil. What everybody needs, despite how good they are, is to be cleansed of evil from within. People who have been good all their lives can easily turn the other way and start sinning uncontrollaby. It happens all the time. We grieve at what they have become. The people they used to be are no longer. They are now just as sick as us.

    God never asked us to be heroes. That is why we must all choose the path of the Second Adam.

    God's creation was perfect. The sin we have now was not part of God's creation. We cannot remove this evil by trying to be righteous. It doesn't matter how righteous you are, you are still capable of evil. If you try to be righteous while still having evil in you, that is an insult to God because God created you to be perfect in conduct.

    Is it wrong for God to make you perfect in conduct?

    Remember that you still have free will. You are simply following your instincts. You are not trying to be a hero or a god. You do only good because it is natural to you.

    Sorry for painting a rosy picture, but that's what I think Christianity really teaches.

    I hope you understand Christianity a bit better.
     

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